From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 1 00:21:42 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:21:42 -0500 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:21:42 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: O2 sensor information ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Brownsword To: Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 10:23 AM Subject: O2 sensor information Look at the posting dates, ie 93 Read the DIY_EFI Archives for alot more current acurrate info. Grumpy | | Check this site out: | | http://www.wps.com/LPG/o2sensor.html | | | And **PLEASE** **PLEASE** **PLEASE** do NOT quote an entire digest message | in your reply to the list. At the very least delete all the excessive | content, and hopefully put a reasonable subject line in as well. | | Thanks, | Andrew | From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 1 10:21:50 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:21:50 -0500 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:21:50 -0500 From: "Wallace A. Gustafson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Happy New Year -- 2000 Happy New Year!!! Hope everyone survived Y2K!!! If anyone needs help, please feel free to contact me. Wallace A. Gustafson -- a.k.a. "Cobra" Cobra Racing & Engineering From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 1 15:05:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:05:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:05:30 -0500 From: jsg@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: Subject: [admin] List services (automated monthly post) This message is post monthly as a reminder of the available list services. For help: Send "help" to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. To post: Send to "[list name]@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu" To subscribe: Send to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu subscribe [list name] [your email address *only* if different than your "From" address] To unsubscribe: Send to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu unsubscribe [list name] [your *registered* email address if different than your "From" address] The archive to each mailing list is available through the following sources: 1) WWW. http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 2) ftp. ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ 3) Majordomo. Send "index [list name]" to Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu. You will find a file "archive_date_index" whose contents show the period covered by each of the archive files "archive_num_*". Digest mode is available for each mailing list. Send "lists" to Majordomo for a listing a mailing lists served. To switch to the digest mode, unsubscribe from the regular list and then subscribe to the digest version (i.e., diy_efi-digest). WWW site (for diy_efi and efi332): http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/ now mirrored at http://tech.buffalostate.edu/efi Please send information to be added to this posting to jsg@esl.eng.ohio-state.edu. John From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 09:19:41 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:19:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 09:19:41 -0500 From: "Robert Eickhorst" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: EGOR Alive? I have been rummaging thru the archives and found a lot of messages about the UEGO sensor. Apparently Garfield was making available an interface design(EGOR). The last message I seem to find is from May of 1999. Anybody know what happened? Bob Eickhorst rleickho@home.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 13:31:39 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:31:39 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:31:39 -0500 From: Bja1078@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 730/727 Hi all, I'm going to start on a project of tpi on a v8. I've decided to use a 730/ 727 ecm on a modifid in take, I thinking about a victor jr. or something of that nature. Anyway my question is this can I trigger the ecm directly from a hall effect, I don't wan't and spark control. And two what uses the 727 is that the vett?? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also what vehicles is any gm that use a 28 lbs/hr injector that should be what I need to feed my motor, by the math anyway! Thanks -Brian From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 18:47:57 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:47:57 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:47:57 -0500 From: garwillis@msn.com (Garfield Willis) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: EGOR Alive? On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 08:20:47 -0600 "Robert Eickhorst" >I have been rummaging thru the archives and found a lot of messages about >the UEGO sensor. Apparently Garfield was making available an interface >design(EGOR). The last message I seem to find is from May of 1999. Anybody >know what happened? >Bob Eickhorst >rleickho@home.com Well, alas, we were hoping to make the announcement around Christmas time (there must have been something later than May, tho), but our last step of calibrations using "primary standard" gases was delayed, because the special-order gases arrived late, and some oddball valves they supplied on the bottles had to be adapted. Please stand by, and you'll hear all about it here on DIY just as soon as we have completed this last step. Real soon now. Gar From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 19:54:50 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:54:50 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:54:50 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 730/727 Persoannally I would use the timing ability of the gm ecm. It is just so much more tunable. Use a late dissy with remote coil and your all set. Buick ttypes.gn used injectors can be had cheap and they are 28s. Close at 30 are the syclone, and can used ones can be bought cheap. I've gotten several sets of them both for $50 for 6, which leaves a couple spares. |Anyway my question is this can I trigger the ecm directly | from a hall effect, I don't wan't and spark control. And two what uses the | 727 is that the vett?? 92 engine code T, R, 91 8, D, R, 90 8, V, T, R, 89 V. S, 88 W (thou can be 730) (best info I have, but may have errors) Grumpy The 730 is a more widely used part. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Also what vehicles | is any gm that use a 28 lbs/hr injector that should be what I need to feed my | motor, by the math anyway! | | Thanks | -Brian | From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 2 22:51:16 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:51:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 22:51:16 -0500 From: cwagner@info2000.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 730/727 I have a similar question. I plan on using the 730 on a project of mine but would like to use the stock distributor. The dis has a hall setup without any advance. How would I go about making it work with the computer so it runs the spark timming. I was thinking about using some transistors for switching . From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 3 01:17:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:17:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 01:17:12 -0500 From: Andrew Wakeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Nissan Pulsar Exa 195 ECU Pinouts Hi Gang, I'm converting my Nissan Pulsar Exa 1984, to the Delco system, and I'm unsure about some of the pinouts of the old Nissan ECU. Here's what I've got so far. If you can fill any in, or guide me somewhere, that would be great. I'm a bit stuck concerning the Fuel Pump Relay. Nissan Exa Pulsar 1984 Nissan 195 ECU Pinouts 1 N/C 2 GREY/BLUE 3 RED/WHITE 4 N/C 5 BLACK/BLUE 6 N/C 7 N/C 8 GREEN/YELLOW (DISTRIBUTOR) 9 BLACK/YELLOW 10 N/C 11 BROWN 12 N/C 13 N/C 14 N/C 15 N/C 16 N/C 17 GREEN/BLACK (DISTRIBUTOR) 18 GREEN/YELLOW 19 N/C 20 N/C 21 WHITE (DETONATION SENSOR) 22 BLUE/YELLOW 23 YELLOW/GREEN (COOLANT SENSOR) 24 N/C 25 GREEN/YELLOW 26 BLACK (AFM EARTH) (COOLANT SENSOR EARTH) 27 BLUE (12V POSITIVE) 28 BLACK (GROUND/EARTH) 29 WHITE/BLUE 30 YELLOW/GREEN (AFM) 31 YELLOW/RED (AFM) 32 N/C 33 YELLOW/BLUE (AFM) 34 N/C 35 BLUE (12V POSITIVE) 36 BLACK (GROUND/EARTH) 101 INJECTOR DRIVER (WHITE) 102 INJECTOR DRIVER (YELLOW) 103 N/C 104 INJECTOR DRIVER (WHITE/RED) 105 INJECTOR DRIVER (WHITE/BLUE) 106 N/C 107 INJECTOR GROUND 108 AIR REGULATOR (BLUE/RED) 109 INJECTOR GROUND 110 YELLOW/BLUE 111 N/C 112 INJECTOR GROUND 113 INJECTOR GROUND 114 N/C 115 N/C Cheers, Andrew Wakeling From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 3 13:25:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:25:53 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 13:25:53 -0500 From: PHXSYS@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Wanted M68HC11EVB- Evaluation Board Hi I was wondering if anyone has a Motorola M68HC11EVB they would like to sell? Please contact me off list Thanks Jon From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 3 18:13:00 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:13:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:13:00 -0500 From: "Nicholas Parker" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: ECU's This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi List, =20 Is there an ECU out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc = 1987 Toyota MR2 Supercharged. I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 cyl sequential = injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition. The main thing is = availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my ECU. The current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard = and so can't be modified. I know this is possibly a stupid question but = does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU. I had = to try, but Toyota weren't helpful. I'm guessing with certainty that various lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU = are set. Is there any 'secret' method for dumping the code out of such = chips ? How about executing external code (via /EA pin) that is a jump, = then toggling the /EA pin at this point, having previously programmed = into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are FFh) a loop that = dumps the contents ? Nick. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi List,  
Is = there an ECU=20 out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc 1987 Toyota MR2=20 Supercharged.
I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 = cyl=20 sequential injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition.  The main = thing is=20 availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my = ECU.
The=20 current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard and=20 so can't be modified.  I know this is possibly a stupid = question but=20 does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU.  I = had to=20 try, but Toyota weren't helpful.
I'm guessing with certainty that = various=20 lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU are set. Is there any 'secret' method = for=20 dumping the code out of such chips ?  How about executing external = code=20 (via /EA pin) that is a jump, then toggling the /EA pin at this point, = having=20 previously programmed into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are = FFh) a=20 loop that dumps the contents ?
 
Nick.
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980-- From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 04:40:57 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:40:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:40:57 -0500 From: "Roderick Warner" Subject: Re: Lucas EFI ECU Is there anyone who has or knows where to get hold of a schmatic ( and ideally some notes ) for the Lucas ECU as used on the Rover V8 engine. The ECU in question is part # 83986A for the flap type air flow meter. Similarly if there is experience of failure modes I would be very interested as I am in the process of fitting injection to a previously carb'd engine and am suffering very rich running , its ok when bliping the throttle. When I move the air flap( by hand) it appears to have no effect on the running , though the voltages do change over the specified range- hence I suspect the ECU. I need to get a scope onto the pulses to see their duration and changes ( if any). Any thoughts please ? Rod Warner From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 08:43:26 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:43:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:43:26 -0500 From: Dave Hempstead MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Hi, Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? So many questions, so few answers, Any help will be appreciated, Dave Hempstead dave_hempstead@agilent.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 08:52:08 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:52:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:52:08 -0500 From: Don.F.Broadus@ucm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 A little trivia on the 1600 MR2 it looks stunningly similar to the Lotus twin cam engine of years ago. You might want to see if the lotus page has any info. I could be way off on this but looking at the Lotus twin cam book and an 1600 Toyota twin cam I got from the yard they seem a direct copy. My $.02 Don > -----Original Message----- > From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [SMTP:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 4:00 AM > To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 > > > DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, January 4 2000 Volume 05 : Number > 001 > > > > In this issue: > > ECU's > Re: Lucas EFI ECU > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:14:47 +1300 > From: "Nicholas Parker" > Subject: ECU's > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi List, =20 > Is there an ECU out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc = > 1987 Toyota MR2 Supercharged. > I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 cyl sequential = > injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition. The main thing is = > availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my ECU. > The current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard = > and so can't be modified. I know this is possibly a stupid question but = > does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU. I had = > to try, but Toyota weren't helpful. > I'm guessing with certainty that various lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU = > are set. Is there any 'secret' method for dumping the code out of such = > chips ? How about executing external code (via /EA pin) that is a jump, = > then toggling the /EA pin at this point, having previously programmed = > into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are FFh) a loop that = > dumps the contents ? > > Nick. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
Hi List,  
Is = > there an ECU=20 > out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc 1987 Toyota MR2=20 > Supercharged.
I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 = > cyl=20 > sequential injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition.  The main = > thing is=20 > availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my = > ECU.
The=20 > current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard and=20 > so can't be modified.  I know this is possibly a stupid = > question but=20 > does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU.  I = > had to=20 > try, but Toyota weren't helpful.
I'm guessing with certainty that = > various=20 > lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU are set. Is there any 'secret' method = > for=20 > dumping the code out of such chips ?  How about executing external = > code=20 > (via /EA pin) that is a jump, then toggling the /EA pin at this point, = > having=20 > previously programmed into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are = > FFh) a=20 > loop that dumps the contents ?
>
 
>
Nick.
> > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:36:41 +0000 > From: "Roderick Warner" > Subject: Re: Lucas EFI ECU > > Is there anyone who has or knows where to get hold of a schmatic ( and > ideally > some notes ) for the Lucas ECU as used on the Rover V8 engine. The ECU in > question is part # 83986A for the flap type air flow meter. Similarly if > there > is experience of failure modes I would be very interested as I am in the > process > of fitting injection to a previously carb'd engine and am suffering very > rich > running , its ok when bliping the throttle. When I move the air flap( by > hand) > it appears to have no effect on the running , though the voltages do > change over > the specified range- hence I suspect the ECU. I need to get a scope onto > the > pulses to see their duration and changes ( if any). Any thoughts please ? > > Rod Warner > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 > *************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 10:21:35 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:21:35 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:21:35 -0500 From: Roger Heflin MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Dave Hempstead wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 > transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? > Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL > stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? > It has to know what gear it is in. The computer also runs the skip shift hardware. You might check the A4 code you have and see if you can find the skip shift code. It basically checks to see if you are in 1st gear and below a certain speed, and then activates some hardware to force a shift to 4th. The code on the 93 is around EDB0 and D24B, if there is similar code in the A4 bin you have then it is very likely that that bin with a few minor data changes is also used on a M6. From everything I can tell the 93 uses the same "code" but slightly different data. The "CARS" part is the CAGS or skip shift stuff. Roger From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 12:16:29 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:16:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:16:29 -0500 From: Eric Clark MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Andrew Mattei's webpage has both the A4 and M6 stream spec. Here is the M6 spec. http://www.mindspring.com/%7Eamattei/a273.doc On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Dave Hempstead wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 > transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? > Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL > stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? > > So many questions, so few answers, > Any help will be appreciated, > Dave Hempstead > dave_hempstead@agilent.com > From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 14:11:03 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:11:03 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:11:03 -0500 From: PHXSYS@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: How to read E6 eeprom while programming ? Hi I have some older E6's that use the 68HC811E2 micro. I was wondering if there is a way to see the addresses where the dos software loads setup parameters and fuel/spark maps in the 2K on chip eeprom. I was thinking of making a simple vb program to download custom setup to eeprom. I need to know what info goes to what eeprom address. Does anyone know how I can do this? Thanks Jon From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 15:27:01 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:27:01 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:27:01 -0500 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 Hi, I am not quite sure how to send me items to the list but anyway: does anyone have a working '747 and possibly a wiring harness for sale ? thanks, Ted -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, January 4 2000 Volume 05 : Number 002 In this issue: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question How to read E6 eeprom while programming ? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2000 08:43:21 -0500 From: Dave Hempstead Subject: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Hi, Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? So many questions, so few answers, Any help will be appreciated, Dave Hempstead dave_hempstead@agilent.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 07:51:32 -0600 From: Don.F.Broadus@ucm.com Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 A little trivia on the 1600 MR2 it looks stunningly similar to the Lotus twin cam engine of years ago. You might want to see if the lotus page has any info. I could be way off on this but looking at the Lotus twin cam book and an 1600 Toyota twin cam I got from the yard they seem a direct copy. My $.02 Don > -----Original Message----- > From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > [SMTP:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 4:00 AM > To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 > > > DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, January 4 2000 Volume 05 : Number > 001 > > > > In this issue: > > ECU's > Re: Lucas EFI ECU > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 12:14:47 +1300 > From: "Nicholas Parker" > Subject: ECU's > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi List, =20 > Is there an ECU out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc = > 1987 Toyota MR2 Supercharged. > I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 cyl sequential = > injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition. The main thing is = > availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my ECU. > The current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard = > and so can't be modified. I know this is possibly a stupid question but = > does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU. I had = > to try, but Toyota weren't helpful. > I'm guessing with certainty that various lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU = > are set. Is there any 'secret' method for dumping the code out of such = > chips ? How about executing external code (via /EA pin) that is a jump, = > then toggling the /EA pin at this point, having previously programmed = > into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are FFh) a loop that = > dumps the contents ? > > Nick. > > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
Hi List,  
Is = > there an ECU=20 > out there somewhere that I can plumb into my '1600cc 1987 Toyota MR2=20 > Supercharged.
I would like MAP as opposed to AFM it currently has, 4 = > cyl=20 > sequential injection and possibly 2 or 4 coil ignition.  The main = > thing is=20 > availability of aftermarket utilities to modify / customize my = > ECU.
The=20 > current ECU has an 8051 derivative I'm told, and tables are onboard and=20 > so can't be modified.  I know this is possibly a stupid = > question but=20 > does anybody have or know how to obtain the code from this ECU.  I = > had to=20 > try, but Toyota weren't helpful.
I'm guessing with certainty that = > various=20 > lock bits on the ECU's 8051 MCU are set. Is there any 'secret' method = > for=20 > dumping the code out of such chips ?  How about executing external = > code=20 > (via /EA pin) that is a jump, then toggling the /EA pin at this point, = > having=20 > previously programmed into the end of the 8051 ROM (only if contents are = > FFh) a=20 > loop that dumps the contents ?
>
 
>
Nick.
> > - ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF551A.F5EE2980-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:36:41 +0000 > From: "Roderick Warner" > Subject: Re: Lucas EFI ECU > > Is there anyone who has or knows where to get hold of a schmatic ( and > ideally > some notes ) for the Lucas ECU as used on the Rover V8 engine. The ECU in > question is part # 83986A for the flap type air flow meter. Similarly if > there > is experience of failure modes I would be very interested as I am in the > process > of fitting injection to a previously carb'd engine and am suffering very > rich > running , its ok when bliping the throttle. When I move the air flap( by > hand) > it appears to have no effect on the running , though the voltages do > change over > the specified range- hence I suspect the ECU. I need to get a scope onto > the > pulses to see their duration and changes ( if any). Any thoughts please ? > > Rod Warner > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #1 > *************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:21:32 -0600 (CST) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Dave Hempstead wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 > transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? > Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL > stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? > It has to know what gear it is in. The computer also runs the skip shift hardware. You might check the A4 code you have and see if you can find the skip shift code. It basically checks to see if you are in 1st gear and below a certain speed, and then activates some hardware to force a shift to 4th. The code on the 93 is around EDB0 and D24B, if there is similar code in the A4 bin you have then it is very likely that that bin with a few minor data changes is also used on a M6. From everything I can tell the 93 uses the same "code" but slightly different data. The "CARS" part is the CAGS or skip shift stuff. Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:16:25 -0600 (CST) From: Eric Clark Subject: Re: 94/95 GM PCM + M6 tranny question Andrew Mattei's webpage has both the A4 and M6 stream spec. Here is the M6 spec. http://www.mindspring.com/%7Eamattei/a273.doc On Tue, 4 Jan 2000, Dave Hempstead wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone know if a 94/95 GM PCM knows what gear its M6 > transmission is in? If it does know, how does it get the information? > Does it send the gear # out its ALDL port? Anyone know what the ALDL > stream looks like for a PCM with manual transmission?? > > So many questions, so few answers, > Any help will be appreciated, > Dave Hempstead > dave_hempstead@agilent.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:10:13 EST From: PHXSYS@aol.com Subject: How to read E6 eeprom while programming ? Hi I have some older E6's that use the 68HC811E2 micro. I was wondering if there is a way to see the addresses where the dos software loads setup parameters and fuel/spark maps in the 2K on chip eeprom. I was thinking of making a simple vb program to download custom setup to eeprom. I need to know what info goes to what eeprom address. Does anyone know how I can do this? Thanks Jon ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 4 22:10:40 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:10:40 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:10:40 -0500 From: A70Duster@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Question on a '88 ALDL Searched though the archives and found some stuff on ALDL communicating with a PC (i.e., RS232 schematics, data reading programs). I've got it to work (somewhat) but I'm only seeing FC or 00 (hex numbers). Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm looking at an '88 GMC with a 350 TBI. Mike From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 5 04:00:50 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 04:00:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 04:00:50 -0500 From: "Rich M" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: 1600 MR2 trivia Lotus did development work for the Toyota 4A-GE motor (1.6 MR2), hence the similarity... Why mess with something that works so well?? Rich. > A little trivia on the 1600 MR2 it looks stunningly similar to the Lotus > twin cam engine of years ago. You might want to see if the lotus page has > any info. I could be way off on this but looking at the Lotus > twin cam book > and an 1600 Toyota twin cam I got from the yard they seem a > direct copy. My > $.02 > From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 5 09:55:58 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:55:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:55:58 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Ted's back, 7747 info Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:24:07 -0800 > From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" > Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 > > Hi, I am not quite sure how to send me items to the list but anyway: > > does anyone have a working '747 and possibly a wiring harness for sale ? > > thanks, Ted > Hi, Ted. Glad you're back. Ever go any farther with the DIS/749 swap? I might have a 7747, I'll have to check. Is this something you need right away? Shannen From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 5 19:02:20 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:02:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:02:20 -0500 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #4 Hi, thanks, no nothing I'm in urgent need of. I went from the Chevy 2.3 tbi system to a bosch jettronic-lh from a Volvo 240dl. I machined the Volvo distributor down to fit in my mgb, and used the Volvo ignition computer/harness. I never permanently did much with the rest, though I mounted all of the parts/sensors, return fuel line, etc, due to the overall crummy intake design of the mgb. either the manifolds I constructed were too long for the mgb engine bay, (uh duh use a tape measure first), or there was some issue. I would like to find a method to 'add' 2 injectors to an existing aluminium, or maybe a cast iron intake. I don't see much around for this, but I may be looking in the wrong place. I'd rather not have a fuel rail as the mounting sort of precludes that. the mgb has a siaimesed intake design. what happened to the normal way of sending/getting emails from this list ? I miss reading them a lot. thanks, Ted -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #4 DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, January 5 2000 Volume 05 : Number 004 In this issue: Re: Ted's back, 7747 info See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 09:50:05 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Ted's back, 7747 info Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > > Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:24:07 -0800 > From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" > Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #2 > > Hi, I am not quite sure how to send me items to the list but anyway: > > does anyone have a working '747 and possibly a wiring harness for sale ? > > thanks, Ted > Hi, Ted. Glad you're back. Ever go any farther with the DIS/749 swap? I might have a 7747, I'll have to check. Is this something you need right away? Shannen ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #4 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 08:06:14 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:06:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:06:14 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #5:re MGB manifold I have a similar problem, siamesed intake ports on my Spitfire. I am going to use 4 injectors installed on the stock manifold. I will mill 4 holes, at very shallow angles, two on each tube, as close to the head mating surface as possible. The holes will be 'splayed' when viewed from the top, such that each injector will fire accross the centerline of the tube and into the intake port on the opposite side. The exact angles and position are chosen to hit as much of the intake valve and pocket, and avoid as much of the manifold and port walls as possible (it helped to have an extra cylinder head to work with). I will fit thinwall steel tubes into these holes (press fit if I can, JB Weld if too loose), and trim the inside flush with the manifold walls. This to provide a mounting boss and a smooth and consistent sealing surface for the lower injector O-rings. Splayed mounting requires fuel supply via individual fittings. I'm thinking of using brass T fittings (from brake systems), center hole reamed to fit upper O-ring, connected with aeroquip hoses or flared steel tubing. When retro-fitting injectors, we cannot always mount the them as closely to the valve pocket as we need. Thus, a narrow spray pattern may be preferred, to keep from wetting the walls. One thing that I have not seen on any of the lists is the characterization of spray patterns for different injectors. Everything is oriented towards flow rates, and impedance. The archive article on building an injector flow bench addresses inspection of the spray patterns, but I have not seen any info that would allow you to determine what pattern an injector has from it's part number or application. Surely that information is available somewhere? Just my .02, good luck with your project! Carter Shore ..... > there was some issue. I would like to find a method > to 'add' 2 injectors to > an existing aluminium, or maybe a cast iron intake. > I don't see much around > for this, but I may be looking in the wrong place. > I'd rather not have a > fuel rail as the mounting sort of precludes that. > > the mgb has a siaimesed intake design. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 15:57:36 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:57:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:57:36 -0500 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 the spitfire engine has siamesed ports too ? hmm. I thought that 2 larger injectors would stand a better chance than trying to aim 4 individual ones in an mgb head, the angle to aim each of them at the back of the intake valve is very steep, making the whole assembly pretty unwieldy, and making a fuel rail for the 4 individual bosch injectors would be pretty hard as it would be circular instead of flat. So I considered 2 larger injectors aimed at the bottom of each of the two intake ports as a more do-able idea. I actually chopped up a volvo efi intake to get the aluminum mounting bosses but the distance to the head is very short. It would take an aluminum welding artist to properly do it in my case. I might be going about this the hard way, someone might sell injectors and easy to add injector bosses. I did find someone who had a bolt-on tbi 'carb' that replaced the strombert CD, but they wanted 500+ for it, which is too high for me. thanks, Ted -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, January 6 2000 Volume 05 : Number 006 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #5:re MGB manifold See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 05:06:12 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #5:re MGB manifold I have a similar problem, siamesed intake ports on my Spitfire. I am going to use 4 injectors installed on the stock manifold. I will mill 4 holes, at very shallow angles, two on each tube, as close to the head mating surface as possible. The holes will be 'splayed' when viewed from the top, such that each injector will fire accross the centerline of the tube and into the intake port on the opposite side. The exact angles and position are chosen to hit as much of the intake valve and pocket, and avoid as much of the manifold and port walls as possible (it helped to have an extra cylinder head to work with). I will fit thinwall steel tubes into these holes (press fit if I can, JB Weld if too loose), and trim the inside flush with the manifold walls. This to provide a mounting boss and a smooth and consistent sealing surface for the lower injector O-rings. Splayed mounting requires fuel supply via individual fittings. I'm thinking of using brass T fittings (from brake systems), center hole reamed to fit upper O-ring, connected with aeroquip hoses or flared steel tubing. When retro-fitting injectors, we cannot always mount the them as closely to the valve pocket as we need. Thus, a narrow spray pattern may be preferred, to keep from wetting the walls. One thing that I have not seen on any of the lists is the characterization of spray patterns for different injectors. Everything is oriented towards flow rates, and impedance. The archive article on building an injector flow bench addresses inspection of the spray patterns, but I have not seen any info that would allow you to determine what pattern an injector has from it's part number or application. Surely that information is available somewhere? Just my .02, good luck with your project! Carter Shore ..... > there was some issue. I would like to find a method > to 'add' 2 injectors to > an existing aluminium, or maybe a cast iron intake. > I don't see much around > for this, but I may be looking in the wrong place. > I'd rather not have a > fuel rail as the mounting sort of precludes that. > > the mgb has a siaimesed intake design. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 16:39:15 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:39:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:39:15 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 Ya'all, just might be over thinking this. Unless your doing a true SEFI, your gonna be just spraying fuel around the manifold anyway. Ya, be nice to get fuel in about the right area, but, I don't think your ever going to see a real difference in what your looking at. Might even be better using a TBI setup since you have more injector firings to atomize the fuel and get it splashing around better (). Grumpy Doc even agrees.. | the spitfire engine has siamesed ports too ? hmm. | I thought that 2 larger injectors would stand a better chance than trying to | aim 4 individual ones in an mgb head, the angle to aim each of them at the | back of the intake valve is very steep, making the whole assembly pretty | unwieldy, and making a fuel rail for the 4 individual bosch injectors would | be pretty hard as it would be circular instead of flat. So I considered 2 | larger injectors aimed at the bottom of each of the two intake ports as a | more do-able idea. | From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 21:04:04 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:04:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:04:04 -0500 From: dennis Subject: injector mounting You guys might want to take a close look at the injector setup on this page, as far as fuel supply is concerned. A cool site in-general. Not many MG's though. http://www.blowerdriveservice.com/phaseI.htm dennis >I have a similar problem, siamesed intake ports on my >Spitfire. I am going to use 4 injectors installed on >the stock manifold. I will mill 4 holes, at very >shallow angles, two on each tube, as close to the head >mating surface as possible. The holes will be >'splayed' when viewed from the top, such that each >injector will fire accross the centerline of the tube >and into the intake port on the opposite side. The >exact angles and position are chosen to hit as much of >the intake valve and pocket, and avoid as much of the >manifold and port walls as possible (it helped to have >an extra cylinder head to work with). I will fit >thinwall steel tubes into these holes (press fit if I >can, JB Weld if too loose), and trim the inside flush >with the manifold walls. This to provide a mounting >boss and a smooth and consistent sealing surface for >the lower injector O-rings. Splayed mounting requires >fuel supply via individual fittings. I'm thinking of >using brass T fittings (from brake systems), center >hole reamed to fit upper O-ring, connected with >aeroquip hoses or flared steel tubing. > >When retro-fitting injectors, we cannot always mount >the them as closely to the valve pocket as we need. >Thus, a narrow spray pattern may be preferred, to keep >from wetting the walls. > >One thing that I have not seen on any of the lists is >the characterization of spray patterns for different >injectors. Everything is oriented towards flow rates, >and impedance. The archive article on building an >injector flow bench addresses inspection of the spray >patterns, but I have not seen any info that would >allow you to determine what pattern an injector has >from it's part number or application. > >Surely that information is available somewhere? > >Just my .02, good luck with your project! > >Carter Shore > >..... >> there was some issue. I would like to find a method >> to 'add' 2 injectors to >> an existing aluminium, or maybe a cast iron intake. >> I don't see much around >> for this, but I may be looking in the wrong place. >> I'd rather not have a >> fuel rail as the mounting sort of precludes that. >> >> the mgb has a siaimesed intake design. >> _____________________________________________________________ Win a Sony AIBO at... http://www.everyone.net Make Your Site Stronger(TM) From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 6 21:30:57 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:30:57 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 21:30:57 -0500 From: dennis Subject: 99 Dakota ECM Hello. I have a '99 Dodge Dakota. I was wondering what is involved in getting myself setup to modify the fuel/ignition maps in the ecm. I am sort-of dumb about this part of automotive tuning but experienced with most others. Feel free to talk down to me technically, I would prefer that to technical terms I have never heard of. Automotive wise I know my stuff, but with processors and electronic hardware I don't know much. I want to figure out a way to do this. I know it can be done, as is evidenced by the Hypertech Power Programmer that they make for my truck. I want something adjustable or I would just buy one of these. I will be making some drastic changes in volumetric efficiency. Would this require an emulator? Hope someone can help me out, thanks in advance. dennis _____________________________________________________________ AutoSpeed - The World's Best High Performance Online Magazine http://www.autospeed.com From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 02:58:34 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 02:58:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 02:58:34 -0500 From: peter.betts@nokia.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 'MAP' and Fueling Hi, I'm new to the group and have a few (probably) simple questions. (Sorry it's a long Email) What is the relationship between MAP and MAF. RPM and Air Temp are factors in converting the MAP sensor output to match the MAF. What I am trying to do is understand what the differences between MAP and MAF are. I have a Toyota Supra Twin Turbo and they come with both MAF and MAP sensor systems for the export and Japanese spec cars. These cars have a fuel cut which operates as soon as the manifold pressure exceeds a preset limit of 13psi. I have designed a voltage hold circuit which clamps the output of the sensor at 13psi (about 4.3V) and hence fools the ECU of the car into thinking it is running much lower boost from the turbos. The problem is that I am unsure if this will affect the fueling charateristcis of the car if I have modified the MAP input the ECU, above the 13psi limit. I may be having fueling problems but am unsure what I may have done. Thanks for the reply from Ric Rainbolt regarding the issue. I have faithfully added his Email below. *****P.Betts*********** The US Surpa site say modifying the MAP sensor output with a fuel cut controller is a bad idea for the Jap spec MAP sensor cars but I agree with Rob below. As the Supra runs rich at high boost the inability of the ECU to correctly calculate the fueling above fuel-cut, because one of the inputs is static, is small up to a point. The next question is at what point (manifold pressure) does the MkIV (and MkIII for interest) start to lean out? This is probably why water injection makes such a difference because the fuel that is available is cooler and thus able to deliver power to the engine more efficiently. (More effieciently burnt) (Time to get a second oxygen sensor or monitor the current one) So as a summary..... The Jap spec Supra **CALCULATES** the Mass Air Flow going into the engine using the parameters described below, one being the Manifold Air Pressure (MAP). The Export (UK) Supra directly senses the MAF using some form of butteryfly/flap type arrangement (I think) and uses this for fueling calculations along with RPM (I suppose) The MAP sensor on the Export models is only used to detect engine vacuum and pressure and doesn't directly affect fueling. Thoughts/Corrections anyone? Any guidance greatfully received. Thanks Pete *****R.Rainbolt************************************************* The fuel cut is used on both the Turbo Supra and Turbo MR2. Since both cars run relatively rich at full (stock) boost, it is "safe" to use such a circuit to prevent the computer from hitting the fuel cut function, but only up to a certain amount of boost. For the MR2, the FCD cuts in at 11 PSI, but it is safe to run the car up to about 15-16 PSI, without fuel system mods. To be safe, the best thing you can do is get an extra Oxygen Sensor installed and connected to a dash meter (HKS, Summit, Greddy, etc.) If the FCD is set to 13 PSI, I would not go over 16-17 PSI. Make sure the car never turns from rich to lean under full power. MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) is directly related to MAF (Manifold Air Flow). The amount of air moving into an engine is refferred to as Mass Air Flow (MAF). MAF is a function of 3 major factors (ignoring temp and humidity for a moment). They are: Throttle Position (TPS), Engine Speed (RPM) and Volumetric Efficiency (VE). VE is a complex component, being different values at different RPM and TPS levels. Systems that only use TPS and MAP are referred to as Speed-Density (SD) systems. They "approximate" the amount of air the engine is using computing MAF from the three above mentioned components. Toyota and other manufacturers use MAF and MAP sensors, even though it is not absolutely necessary to have both. Either will work, as long as TPS and other factors are known. On the MR2 and Supra, HKS sells a kit that actually lets you eliminate the MAF sensor. The idea is to allow for better intake breathing and better throttle response. Ric Rainbolt ************************************************************************** From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 08:18:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:18:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:18:53 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #7:injector mounting Ted: Sure 2 injectors would work, though if adapting a 4 injector setup (what's the Volvo?) you'd have to combine the drive pulses, easy if saturated open collector drivers, maybe more complex if peak/hold. Still maybe a problem with tradeoff between minimum pulsewidth at idle vs. WOT flow. Packaging retro-fit is always a problem, but splayed mount may make it easier. Don't really need a mill, good sharp drill with sturdy fabricated guide fixture would do, then use a reamer to get size. I'm not a welding artisan, but I can cut and file aluminum pieces, then glue them up for a prototype (JB Weld to the rescue!) Grump: I'm adapting a bone stock Ford EEC-IV (hiss!!!) SEFI. Easier to use 4 inj, I'll just have to finagle the ROM tables. I originally wanted to use the efi332 setup, but had to drop back. Still an option for the future, as this is my first cut on a continuing project. As for wall wetting, archives and list all point to this as an issue with emissions, and this is a street car that may be called on to pass the test. If I can eliminate or minimize it up-front by design, then just one less problem to deal with. As always folks, thanks for advice, comments, critique. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 15:33:14 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:33:14 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:33:14 -0500 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: injector mounting hi, the Volvo jet-LH has 4 Bosch injectors. but they were all batch fired at one time. (common firing wiring). does anyone know where I could get any tools for this idea ? I had read of someone that sold a drill guide ? for a specific injector type. I was thinking of using lots of jbweld, but I got advised that it shouldn't be though of as a permanent cure. I guess I am stuck at the point of what makes a good design. It is a little tough to have the correct 'crossfire' angle and still leave a good airflow (not too much hanging out inside the intake). and work out a proper splayed fuel layout for the injectors. I have quite a collection of mgb intake manifolds now, one cast iron, etc. any thoughts would be appreciated. thanks, Ted -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #8 DIY_EFI Digest Friday, January 7 2000 Volume 05 : Number 008 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #7:injector mounting See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 05:18:51 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #7:injector mounting Ted: Sure 2 injectors would work, though if adapting a 4 injector setup (what's the Volvo?) you'd have to combine the drive pulses, easy if saturated open collector drivers, maybe more complex if peak/hold. Still maybe a problem with tradeoff between minimum pulsewidth at idle vs. WOT flow. Packaging retro-fit is always a problem, but splayed mount may make it easier. Don't really need a mill, good sharp drill with sturdy fabricated guide fixture would do, then use a reamer to get size. I'm not a welding artisan, but I can cut and file aluminum pieces, then glue them up for a prototype (JB Weld to the rescue!) Grump: I'm adapting a bone stock Ford EEC-IV (hiss!!!) SEFI. Easier to use 4 inj, I'll just have to finagle the ROM tables. I originally wanted to use the efi332 setup, but had to drop back. Still an option for the future, as this is my first cut on a continuing project. As for wall wetting, archives and list all point to this as an issue with emissions, and this is a street car that may be called on to pass the test. If I can eliminate or minimize it up-front by design, then just one less problem to deal with. As always folks, thanks for advice, comments, critique. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #8 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 15:34:33 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:34:33 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:34:33 -0500 From: "Scott Christensen" Subject: Check this out Check this out: http://www.leburg.freeserve.co.uk Click on the picture at the bottom to see big pic of dual electronic ignition combo alternator setup. Those ford "Zetec quad EHT coils" are nifty. Anyone seen them before? -scott ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 17:08:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:08:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:08:32 -0500 From: "Clare Snyder" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Volvo/MG/Spit EFI > > Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:58:03 -0800 > From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" > Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #6 > > the spitfire engine has siamesed ports too ? hmm. > > I thought that 2 larger injectors would stand a better chance than trying to > aim 4 individual ones in an mgb head, the angle to aim each of them at the > back of the intake valve is very steep, making the whole assembly pretty > unwieldy, and making a fuel rail for the 4 individual bosch injectors would > be pretty hard as it would be circular instead of flat. So I considered 2 > larger injectors aimed at the bottom of each of the two intake ports as a > more do-able idea. > > I actually chopped up a volvo efi intake to get the aluminum mounting > bosses but the distance to the head is very short. It would take an aluminum > welding artist to properly do it in my case. I might be going about this the > hard way, someone might sell injectors and easy to add injector bosses. I > did find someone who had a bolt-on tbi 'carb' that replaced the strombert > CD, but they wanted 500+ for it, which is too high for me. > > thanks, Ted How about drilling the manifold runners on the horizontal plane so the injectors squirt straight into the port. The holes would be tangential to the curve of the runner. You need to fire them FFRRFFRRFFRR. for 1342 firing order OR put 2 injectors in the top, and two in the bottom with 2 rails. Put them in about 15 degrees off horizontal each way From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 21:16:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:16:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:16:53 -0500 From: dennis Subject: injector bungs? I work at an aircraft repair facility. We keep some 5/8x.035 aluminum tubing in stock to flare and make up AN tubing with. A standard port injector w/oring slips right into this stuff with just about the right tightness compared to the intakes I have stabbed with injectors. You can probably get similar tubing locally from a metal supply house. I am gonna cut some short sections and try to use them for injector mounting on a custom intake I am building for a Chrysler 2.2. I plan on drilling an angled hole, then having these epoxied in, or maybe welded if they aren't too thin for my local welder to weld. I then plan on grinding them flush on the inside of the runner. This idea combined with those cool AN style individual fuel lines sold by www.blowerdriveservice.com might get it done for you. Then you just have to hold the injectors in the hole. I don't know what country you are in, but in USA Chrysler used a multiport style injector in their pre-85 tbi 2.2s. The system they used to hold the injector in, used a snap ring and a rubber grommet. If you can get this stuff it might work. If not you can probably copy this Idea with a properly sized grommet, a washer, and a snap ring--plus a little creativity. The washer goes on first. The grommet fits around the injector about halfway up, in the recess of the side of the injector body. The grommet could probably be omitted, it just cushions the injector a bit. The snap ring goes on under it and fits tight on the injector body also in the recess. Then you use screws through the washer with their ends threaded into the manifold to pull the injector into the manifold. A plate of thin steel shaped like a small block chevy thermostat gasket, but sized properly, might also work. A small section would need to be cut out of the side so that it can slide onto the injector and into the recess. Hope this helps out for someone. dennis >I actually chopped up a volvo efi intake to get the aluminum mounting >bosses but the distance to the head is very short. It would take an aluminum >welding artist to properly do it in my case. I might be going about this the >hard way, someone might sell injectors and easy to add injector bosses. >thanks, Ted > _____________________________________________________________ Win a Sony AIBO at... http://www.everyone.net Make Your Site Stronger(TM) From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 7 21:48:37 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:48:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:48:37 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 'MAP' and Fueling | I'm new to the group and have a few (probably) simple questions. (Sorry it's | a long Email) | | What is the relationship between MAP and MAF. RPM and Air Temp are factors | in converting the MAP sensor output to match the MAF. What I am trying to do | is understand what the differences between MAP and MAF are. MAF directly measures the amount of air entering an engine. MAP is used to calculate the amount of air entering an engine. It's a wash for which is better. They both have advantages and faults in theory. Really a matter of what you perfer, and most comfortable working with. I just happen to like MAP. While it's not seemling as adaptable as the MAF, it's easier for me to understand, and work with, so I have my best results working with it. It also, is better for transiant responses, so with my analness about responsiveness, it works for me. To me ain't nothing more important tehn not running out of resolution, and table room for tuning. Tuning an engine to run 18 PSI of boost with a calibration that stops at 15 PSI, is just plan dumb, or worse in my book. Means that at either less than WOT the calibration is wrong or at WOT it's wrong, your choice. Both are losers in my book. Hate to be blunt, but that's how I see it. Grumpy Like I just said in another posting try the archives at DIY for MAP, and MAP, there is a ton in print about it | I have a Toyota Supra Twin Turbo and they come with both MAF and MAP sensor | systems for the export and Japanese spec cars. These cars have a fuel cut | which operates as soon as the manifold pressure exceeds a preset limit of | 13psi. I have designed a voltage hold circuit which clamps the output of the | sensor at 13psi (about 4.3V) and hence fools the ECU of the car into | thinking it is running much lower boost from the turbos. | The problem is that I am unsure if this will affect the fueling | charateristcis of the car if I have modified the MAP input the ECU, above | the 13psi limit. I may be having fueling problems but am unsure what I may | have done. | | Thanks for the reply from Ric Rainbolt regarding the issue. I have | faithfully added his Email below. | | *****P.Betts*********** | The US Surpa site say modifying the MAP sensor output with a fuel cut | controller is a bad idea for the Jap spec MAP sensor cars but I agree with | Rob below. As the Supra runs rich at high boost the inability of the ECU to | correctly calculate the fueling above fuel-cut, because one of the inputs is | static, is small up to a point. | | The next question is at what point (manifold pressure) does the MkIV (and | MkIII for interest) start to lean out? This is probably why water injection | makes such a difference because the fuel that is available is cooler and | thus able to deliver power to the engine more efficiently. (More | effieciently burnt) | (Time to get a second oxygen sensor or monitor the current one) | | So as a summary..... | | The Jap spec Supra **CALCULATES** the Mass Air Flow going into the engine | using the parameters described below, one being the Manifold Air Pressure | (MAP). | | The Export (UK) Supra directly senses the MAF using some form of | butteryfly/flap type arrangement (I think) and uses this for fueling | calculations along with RPM (I suppose) The MAP sensor on the Export models | is only used to detect engine vacuum and pressure and doesn't directly | affect fueling. | | Thoughts/Corrections anyone? Any guidance greatfully received. | | Thanks | Pete | | | *****R.Rainbolt************************************************* | The fuel cut is used on both the Turbo Supra and Turbo MR2. Since both | cars run relatively rich at full (stock) boost, it is "safe" to use such a | circuit to prevent the computer from hitting the fuel cut function, but | only up to a certain amount of boost. For the MR2, the FCD cuts in at 11 | PSI, but it is safe to run the car up to about 15-16 PSI, without fuel | system mods. | | To be safe, the best thing you can do is get an extra Oxygen Sensor | installed and connected to a dash meter (HKS, Summit, Greddy, etc.) If the | FCD is set to 13 PSI, I would not go over 16-17 PSI. Make sure the car | never turns from rich to lean under full power. | | MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) is directly related to MAF (Manifold Air Flow). | The amount of air moving into an engine is refferred to as Mass Air Flow | (MAF). MAF is a function of 3 major factors (ignoring temp and humidity | for a moment). They are: Throttle Position (TPS), Engine Speed (RPM) and | Volumetric Efficiency (VE). VE is a complex component, being different | values at different RPM and TPS levels. Systems that only use TPS and MAP | are referred to as Speed-Density (SD) systems. They "approximate" the | amount of air the engine is using computing MAF from the three above | mentioned components. | | Toyota and other manufacturers use MAF and MAP sensors, even though it is | not absolutely necessary to have both. Either will work, as long as TPS and | other factors are known. On the MR2 and Supra, HKS sells a kit that | actually lets you eliminate the MAF sensor. The idea is to allow for | better intake breathing and better throttle response. | | Ric Rainbolt | | ************************************************************************** | From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 02:34:46 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 02:34:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 02:34:46 -0500 From: Richard Wakeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Opel Barina Pin-outs Hiya all, I have got my hands on a (Opel) Holden Barina 1998 ECM. Firstly, I'm pretty sure this model isn't OBD-II compatible and this is what we've found on the 16 pin OBD-II style connector: Pin 3 Possible TTL Data Signal? Pin 4 Chassis Ground Pin 5 Signal Ground Pin 7 Measured 12V when Ignition was turned on Pin 12 ? Pin 16 12 V Anyhow, I'm very keen to hook this one up on the bench but the wiring is different to that of previous computer types. Does anybody have a wiring diagram or pinout for the ECM? Here's some numbers: 16257119 AJ Memcal type: CBXD 7066 Also, if anybody could confirm if this model is OBD-II compatible or not that would be great. As yet, we have not seen an OBD-II GM vehicle in Australia. Cheers, Andrew and Richard Wakeling. From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 08:59:10 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:59:10 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:59:10 -0500 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #9 >does anyone know where I could get any tools for this idea ? I had read of >someone that sold a drill guide ? for a specific injector type. >> MSD Fuel Systems, El Paso, Texas sells one. Greg From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 09:28:24 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:28:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:28:24 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: TWM and SDS Hi All, I have been lurking on the list a while watching things go by. Does anyone have experiance with the TWM weber/solex style throttle bodies? I have an application that BEGS for them. Have any of you used the Simple Digital Systems setup? I realize some of you are EE's (you can't spell gEEk w/o EE - that's my background too!), but I don't have the time anymore for a ECU development project. Any other simple, inexpensive, systems you would recommend (4 cyl, NA application) Jim Tyler DIY_EFI Newbie From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 11:58:35 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 11:58:35 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 11:58:35 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TWM and SDS Personally, I favor the GM ecms. If you go to www.tunercat.com , there are some hac's of the 1227165, and 1227730/1227727 ecms. Then for less than $100 is the editing software for numerous other ecms. Also, Terry Kelly has some editors available, for the gm ecms. So if you stuck with the ecms already haced and get the editor for the same, it would be easy to have an ecm that is totally in your control. Then it's just a matter of chip burner, eraser, and efi hardware. Clever buyiing will get you lots more, the the same dollars for an aftermarket one. Plus, in the event of failure, junkyards are easier to find then a SDS ecm on Sat and out of town.. Grumpy | Does anyone have experiance with the TWM weber/solex style | throttle bodies? I have an application that BEGS for them. | Have any of you used the Simple Digital Systems setup? I realize some of you are EE's (you can't spell gEEk w/o EE - that's my background too!), but I don't have the time anymore for a ECU development project. | Any other simple, inexpensive, systems you would recommend (4 cyl, NA application) | Jim Tyler | DIY_EFI Newbie From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 19:05:07 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:05:07 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:05:07 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM OK, help me through this hypothetically (I'll save it!) TWM + GM compatible injectors Assume a proper fuel delvery system (tackle that later) GM ecu + donor engine harness to hack up Is there a crank triggered 4-cyl non turbo ecu from GM that would do the following: 1) control the fuel pump on/off 2) I guess we use a GM temp sensor (no prob) for warm up. 3) trigger off the crank (I can probably fabricate that part, depending on how GM triggers) 4) fire a coil or MSD through the original dist/cap/rotor (I could do crank fire 1/coil per cyl, but am trying to keep the extra's down and don't want to try to force a GM dist into this engine) 5) I assume a TPS is used, yes? 6) Is a MAP? 7) Could I (would I want to) use a MAF with the TWM's/GM 8) What donor vehicle are you thinking? 9) I don't have emissions as an issue, do we want to or need to run an O2 sensor for the ECU to function or would it just run open loop if not connected? Sorry for all the questions I warned you about newbieness..... just getting started. Thanks a ton, Jim >Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:05:19 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM and SDS > >Personally, I favor the GM ecms....... From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 19:53:22 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:53:22 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:53:22 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: Nissan stuff Anyone out there real familiar with Nissan ecu's/ FI? Jim Tyler From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 19:59:09 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:59:09 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 19:59:09 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM | OK, help me through this hypothetically (I'll save it!) You sure, you edited out the precious stuff, from the first post. I told you what ecms, I would consider, and where to look for info., and then you write back asking questions that a casual scan would have answered. Also, don't forget the archives, thes DIY+GMECM. You need to be informed, and just doing FAQ ain't enough, you got lots of home work. Anyway: | Is there a crank triggered 4-cyl non turbo ecu from GM that would do the | following: | 1) control the fuel pump on/off They all do after a fashion, looking at the wiring diagram for mentioned ecms at FTP will show you how, it's done | 2) I guess we use a GM temp sensor (no prob) for warm up. It's used all the time, and critical for a street car. | 3) trigger off the crank (I can probably fabricate that part, | depending on how GM triggers) Several, strategies, might consider the local library and looking at shop manuals. Might even consider figuring out what you have, and how that compares to where your going. | 4) fire a coil or MSD through the original dist/cap/rotor | (I could do crank fire 1/coil per cyl, but am trying to keep | the extra's down and don't want to try to force a GM dist into | this engine) Any 12v to 0 point open signal operates a MSD etc.. | 5) I assume a TPS is used, yes? Yes | 6) Is a MAP? The 730 hac I refered to is MAP | 7) Could I (would I want to) use a MAF with the TWM's/GM I'd go MAP, and that's what the hac is for. | 8) What donor vehicle are you thinking? I'd finish gather info about what is going on, and then worry about parts. | 9) I don't have emissions as an issue, do we want to or need | to run an O2 sensor for the ECU to function or would it just run open | loop if not connected? No big lose just using closed loop. For the novice might be easier, long term. Grumpy | Sorry for all the questions I warned you about newbieness..... | just getting started. | Thanks a ton, | Jim | | | | >Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 12:05:19 -0500 | >From: "Bruce Plecan" | >Subject: Re: TWM and SDS | > | >Personally, I favor the GM ecms....... | From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 20:11:33 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:11:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:11:33 -0500 From: A70Duster@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Geek?!?!?! In a message dated 1/8/00 1:12:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: << I realize some of you are EE's (you can't spell gEEk w/o EE - that's my background too!), >> You can't spell bEEr either... From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 22:23:15 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:23:15 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:23:15 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #9:Injector mounting Cutting intersecting tubing and holes is not a new problem, chassis and roll bar fabricators must do it all the time. There is a widely used tool, ('ole joint jigger, etc. ) that accomplished this task. It can be adjusted for tubing up to 2-3 inches, and almost any intersecting angle. Uses a standard hand drill with common hole saws. ...I guess I am stuck at > the point of what makes > a good design. It is a little tough to have the > correct 'crossfire' angle > and still leave a good airflow (not too much hanging > out inside the intake). > and work out a proper splayed fuel layout for the > injectors.... But since the Volvo used batch fire, as Grumpy pointed out, why bother? What size motor was the Volvo? MGB was 1.8L AFIR. Look up the flow on the 4 injectors you have (Lucas, Bosch, ?), then find some compatible ones that will flow enough for the MGB using just two. flow req = (MGB motor)/(Volvo motor) x (inj flow) x 2 So if the Volvo was 2.2L, injectors 19 lb, then flow req = (1.8)/(2.2) x 19 x 2 = 31 lb Of course, this assumes similar VE, max RPM usage, etc., YMMV. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 8 22:36:26 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:36:26 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 22:36:26 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Injector Spray Pattern Does anyone know how to find out the spray pattern angle of an injector from it's part number or application? Recent list threads reminded me that I must use a narrow angle injector on my project. If I had an injector spray bench, and access to every injector made, I could find out. Although I would love to build an injector test bench someday, this is not the time. I know that this is an important part of the design spec for an injector (size and shape of the pintle and seat, etc. ), so the data exists somewhere. Failing that, does anyone have any empirical info? Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 12:49:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:49:13 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 12:49:13 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #11 Now you re taking me back to school! Lots of drunk geeks...! A pretty female EE I knew one told me: "Anyone who is into FET's, Eproms, and micro's is a geek at heart; some of us just hide it better than others!" She later posed in one of those playboy school pictorials, just for fun. (No offense, All in fun!) >Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:10:57 EST >From: A70Duster@aol.com >Subject: Geek?!?!?! > >In a message dated 1/8/00 1:12:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, >DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu writes: > ><< I realize some of you are EE's (you can't spell gEEk w/o EE - that's my >background too!), >> > > >You can't spell bEEr either... > > From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 13:08:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:08:32 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:08:32 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM > >Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:05:54 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM > >| OK, help me through this hypothetically (I'll save it!) > >You sure, you edited out the precious stuff, from the first post. >I told you what ecms, I would consider, and where to look for info., and Thanks very much. I did save the precious stuff and found "programming 101", and some of the hacks. There was alot of good info in that short email, thanks again. >Several, strategies, might consider the local library and looking at shop >manuals. Might even consider figuring out what you have, and how that >compares to where your going. Is there a particular text or manual that comes to mind for this type setup (MAP,TPS, dist)? The original application is a very solid, free breathing, 4 cylinder which had carbs and points. I can either modify the dist or go crank triggered. There are no GM parts that will direct fit. The TWM's are perfect since there is a very nice manifold available, all bolt up making that part attractive. Jim From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 13:40:00 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:40:00 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 13:40:00 -0500 From: Nahuel Garavaglia MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Efi for motorcycle Well, actually i'm riding a yamaha radian 600, i have two of them one totally original an another one totally unmounted, on the second i rebuilding the engine, 'cause the carbs are totalle termined! and 'cause i owner of a nissan repairing shop i'm planing to make it an EFI RADIAN, i have a lot of inyectors in some condition to make a premier test, i think about devdelop a MAP type efi, can anubody send me ideas. ===== Nahuel Garavaglia ngarav@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 14:45:23 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:45:23 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 14:45:23 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TWM & GM ECM It literally takes years to accumulate the info..... I've been actively gathering EFI stuff since 85, and have a small library of info., and lost alot in a tornado, so some of what I do is from memory (failing thou as it is). Anyway, that's why I always seem a little short always asking for application, and engine specifics. Like free breathing 4 cyl. tells me absolutely nothing. I have meet folks here that can do a vulcan mind meld with an ecm, but not one that can tell more then what is written for what someone is working one. If you really are seriou about EFI, and learning then contact General Motors Training Materials MSX International Marketing Service 1426 Pacific Dr Auburn Hillls, MI 48326 (800) 393-4831 Their book, GM Fuel Injection Diagnostics, gives a good over view of the gm systems, and options for some components. Then for like TPS Switches you need to do alot of junkyard hunting or find a parts house that will let you look at the AC Delco Emissions Book. In the back it has pictures of the various TPS switches, IAT, CTS, etc... If it has points then there probably is a LED conversion kit for it, then you can sometimes make a new shutter, and all of a sudden everything is done for your DIS. All that needs done was generating a conversion from the coil driver to operate the gm sensor input to the module... Take a dissy cap cut the top off, glue/epoxy a flat top on it, and you have one very trick cam/crank posistion sensor, that needs no maintainence. The gm sensors are generally regular pipe threads so they are no brainers to work. For TPS, there is always the option of driving it off the acc. pedal linkage (thou mounted at butterflies best). I'd bet TWM has one with TPS on it. Grumpy | Is there a particular text or manual that comes to mind for this type | setup (MAP,TPS, dist)? | The original application is a very solid, free breathing, 4 cylinder which had carbs and points. I can either modify the dist or go crank | triggered. There are no GM parts that will direct fit. | The TWM's are perfect since there is a very nice manifold available, | all bolt up making that part attractive. | Jim From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 19:08:19 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:08:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:08:19 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM It is a Nissan U20 engine if that tells you anything. There is a Pertronics and Crane/Allison kit available if that helps. How many triggers/crossings do the GM distributor type systems usually use? (I'll look into it myself) Yes, the TWM's have TPS's (various types available),so that part is easy. >always asking for application, and engine specifics. Like free breathing 4 >cyl. tells me absolutely nothing. I have meet folks here that can do a >vulcan mind meld with an ecm, but not one that can tell more then what is >written for what someone is working one. > If you really are seriou about EFI, and learning then contact > >General Motors Training Materials >MSX International Marketing Service >1426 Pacific Dr >Auburn Hillls, MI 48326 >(800) 393-4831 > >Their book, GM Fuel Injection Diagnostics, gives a good over view of the gm >systems, and options for some components. > Thanks, Sounds very good. >Then for like TPS Switches you need to do alot of junkyard hunting or find a >parts house that will let you look at the AC Delco Emissions Book. In the >back it has pictures of the various TPS switches, IAT, CTS, etc... > >If it has points then there probably is a LED conversion kit for it, then >you can sometimes make a new shutter, and all of a sudden everything is done >for your DIS. All that needs done was generating a conversion from the coil >driver to operate the gm sensor input to the module... Take a dissy cap cut >the top off, glue/epoxy a flat top on it, and you have one very trick >cam/crank posistion sensor, that needs no maintainence. > > For TPS, there is always the option of driving it off the acc. pedal >linkage (thou mounted at butterflies best). I'd bet TWM has one with TPS on >it. >Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 19:21:34 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:21:34 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:21:34 -0500 From: dzorde@erggroup.com Subject: LRP and O2 sensors Hi all, For those unaware, Western Australia has just moved from leaded petrol to lead replacement petrol (oh joy, like New Zealand). Anyway there has been lots of talk about whether it harms the older engines, but no one has mentioned whether it is now safe to permanently mount the O2 in the car. So I guess my question is, can anyone confirm whether O2 sensors are resistant to LRP (apparently LRP is based on premium unleaded blended with a potassium brew of some sort) ? Dan dzorde@erggroup.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 19:44:59 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:44:59 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:44:59 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM If your doing, or planning on possibly going DIS, then the Crane wins, and get an uncut spare wheel or two. Alllison used to just about give em away when you asked for em. For the Dissy, it's just like a point signal. For DIS, they most often use (4 cyl application), use 6 notches (equally spaced), and one offset 10 degrees from one of them. I you get serious about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch fires which coil pack etc.. Grumpy | It is a Nissan U20 engine if that tells you anything. There is a Pertronics and Crane/Allison kit available if that helps. How many | triggers/crossings do the GM distributor type systems usually use? | (I'll look into it myself) | Yes, the TWM's have TPS's (various types available),so that part is easy. | >always asking for application, and engine specifics. Like free breathing 4 | >cyl. tells me absolutely nothing. I have meet folks here that can do a | >vulcan mind meld with an ecm, but not one that can tell more then what is | >written for what someone is working one. | > If you really are seriou about EFI, and learning then contact | >General Motors Training Materials | >MSX International Marketing Service | >1426 Pacific Dr | >Auburn Hillls, MI 48326 | >(800) 393-4831 | >Their book, GM Fuel Injection Diagnostics, gives a good over view of the gm | >systems, and options for some components. | Thanks, Sounds very good. | >Then for like TPS Switches you need to do alot of junkyard hunting or find a | >parts house that will let you look at the AC Delco Emissions Book. In the | >back it has pictures of the various TPS switches, IAT, CTS, etc... | >If it has points then there probably is a LED conversion kit for it, then | >you can sometimes make a new shutter, and all of a sudden everything is done | >for your DIS. All that needs done was generating a conversion from the coil | >driver to operate the gm sensor input to the module... Take a dissy cap cut | >the top off, glue/epoxy a flat top on it, and you have one very trick | >cam/crank posistion sensor, that needs no maintainence. | > For TPS, there is always the option of driving it off the acc. pedal | >linkage (thou mounted at butterflies best). I'd bet TWM has one with TPS on | >it. | >Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 20:35:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:35:53 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:35:53 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: LRP and O2 sensors All things being equal, I've never first hand had that problem. Now if they change the octane or Reed Vapor Levels while doing that then there will be problems, but with as many cos that have done that, there is no reason for it to be a problem. If in doubt just back to basics, reading plugs, and then reading them some more. The plugs will answer your questions. Grumpy | Hi all, | For those unaware, Western Australia has just moved from leaded petrol to lead | replacement petrol (oh joy, like New Zealand). Anyway there has been lots of | talk about whether it harms the older engines, but no one has mentioned whether | it is now safe to permanently mount the O2 in the car. So I guess my question | is, can anyone confirm whether O2 sensors are resistant to LRP (apparently LRP | is based on premium unleaded blended with a potassium brew of some sort) ? | Dan dzorde@erggroup.com From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 9 22:21:14 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:21:14 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:21:14 -0500 From: "Wallace A. Gustafson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Need Source For Small Gas Engine Fuel Injection Parts This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF5ADF.365F8620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I need any source that anyone might have about small gasoline engine = fuel injection part suppiers. Thank you. ------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF5ADF.365F8620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I need any source that anyone might = have about=20 small gasoline engine fuel injection part suppiers.
 
Thank you.
------=_NextPart_000_00CE_01BF5ADF.365F8620-- From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 10:43:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:43:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:43:12 -0500 From: brucep@ptd.net Subject: Knock Sensor on Dyno I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. I already have a digital tach, torque and 10 channel thermocouple thermometer in the works. I was wondering if I could add a knock sensor to my list also? What specifically would I need to use a sensor ie power and how do I read it? I'd like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? Can I put the sensor in some type of holder then bolt it to the block for testing? Another idea I have is to read intake air, not sure whether Mass air sensor will work due to stand off fuel (might make a big flame), or a MAP sensor maybe inside some type of velocity stack? Thanks in advance for any and all ideas! This list is a wealth of knowledge, anyone wanting to see my ongoing dyno build stop by my homepage at http://www.geocities.com/brucepts/pts.htm Bruce There are those that have, and those that will . . . From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 17:25:29 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:25:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:25:29 -0500 From: Andris Subject: Re: Knock sensor on dyno On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > > DIY_EFI Digest Monday, January 10 2000 Volume 05 : Number 014 > > > > In this issue: > > Knock Sensor on Dyno > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines > up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was > reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. > like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of > which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? The one problem that comes to mind if you were using the GM knock sensors is the sonic qualities of knocking in your small engine. From what I've read, the knock sensor is tuned to specifically hear+amplify the characteristic knock sound for that bore diameter, and block. GM has had several different knock sensors, and even had a different one for the LT1 and LT4, even though they have the same dimensions (LT4 was supposedly a little noisier). If you have the same bore, then I guess the knock would sound similar. > Can I put the sensor > in some type of holder then bolt it to the block for testing? I think as long as the sensor is in contact with the cooling jacket water, you should be OK. HTH! Andris/SPD Z28tt-89 IROC T56 DFi Twin Turbo From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 17:51:57 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:51:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 17:51:57 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Knock sensor on dyno If, I were going to do something like this, I'd just grab a couple sensors from like a 4-6-8 Gm, then Chyrler, product line. Then just setup a little Op-Amp and wire that to a comparator to turn on a LED. Use an ajustable threshold on comparator to tune out back ground noise. If mounted in head parrarel with rod travel, if from side of cylinder right angle to rod travel seems to be about the logic in mounting from what I've seen. Securely mounted being the buzz word here. You might even try the stock ESC of the matching year application (there are several very different KS from gm), so they match the ESC module... If the EPA was breathing down my back, I would probably get real anal about being dead on for frequency. But for DIY_EFI, I think the above is close enough. Just remember free advise is just that..... No guarantees | > Knock Sensor on Dyno | > I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines | > up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was | > reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. | > like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of | > which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? | The one problem that comes to mind if you were using the GM knock sensors | is the sonic qualities of knocking in your small engine. From what I've | read, the knock sensor is tuned to specifically hear+amplify the | characteristic knock sound for that bore diameter, and block. GM has had | several different knock sensors, and even had a different one for the LT1 | and LT4, even though they have the same dimensions (LT4 was supposedly a | little noisier). If you have the same bore, then I guess the knock would | sound similar. | > Can I put the sensor | > in some type of holder then bolt it to the block for testing? | I think as long as the sensor is in contact with the cooling jacket water, | you should be OK. HTH! | Andris/SPD From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 18:00:37 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:00:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:00:37 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno Bruce, I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, etc. In other words, they are specific to a given engine. I have been working with freeware audio spectrum analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even better results. Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look for knock signals for that specific motor. All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. Carter Shore __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 18:12:01 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:12:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:12:01 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno I didn't say they were. That's why I said to get a few and try them... And BS to engine specific. The one I'm running in my F-Body (355 CID), is from a 3.8L 85MY, as I recall. See I went and got several ESC moddules, and sensors and actually tinkered with mix and matching them, so I do have some notion on how the things ACTUALLY work. Audio analyzer, gee great. I did my actual on car testing with a $20 old scanner, and will match my results to anyone's. Theory is fine, but execution is what matters!!.. Grumpy Hmm, wonder why?. | Bruce, | I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive | to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, | etc. In other words, they are specific to a given | engine. | I have been working with freeware audio spectrum | analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By | connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and | then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block | with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic | frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The | resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can | safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even | better results. | Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look | for knock signals for that specific motor. | All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone | (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. | YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. | Carter Shore From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 18:27:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:27:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:27:30 -0500 From: "Gary Derian" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14 MAF or map will work fine on the dyno but you need a large damping volume between it and the engine. A knock sensor is just a piezoelectric microphone, you can mount it anywhere. You will have to do some trial and error to see what works. Gary Derian > I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines > up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was > reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. I already have > a digital tach, torque and 10 channel thermocouple thermometer in the works. > I was wondering if I could add a knock sensor to my list also? What > specifically would I need to use a sensor ie power and how do I read it? I'd > like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of > which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? Can I put the sensor > in some type of holder then bolt it to the block for testing? Another idea I > have is to read intake air, not sure whether Mass air sensor will work due > to stand off fuel (might make a big flame), or a MAP sensor maybe inside > some type of velocity stack? Thanks in advance for any and all ideas! This > list is a wealth of knowledge, anyone wanting to see my ongoing dyno build > stop by my homepage at http://www.geocities.com/brucepts/pts.htm > > Bruce > > There are those that have, and those that will . . . From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 19:17:59 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:17:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 19:17:59 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM I like the "cut you own wheel" idea with the Crane, very clever. However, if I am going to go DIS, would it be that much harder to make a wheel for the crank pulley and use some kind of pickup down there? Is there one you especially like? Thanks in advance. Jim ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 19:51:37 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM > >If your doing, or planning on possibly going DIS, then the Crane wins, and >get an uncut spare wheel or two. Alllison used to just about give em away >when you asked for em. > For the Dissy, it's just like a point signal. > For DIS, they most often use (4 cyl application), use 6 notches (equally >spaced), and one offset 10 degrees from one of them. I you get serious >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch >fires which coil pack etc.. >Grumpy > From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 20:02:31 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:02:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 20:02:31 -0500 From: dzorde@erggroup.com Subject: Re: LRP and O2 OK, here's a true novice question then. Have never owned a car that runs unleaded, what colour should the plugs be when you are running unleaded, after all cars on unleaded always seem to have black tailpipes ? Dan dzorde@erggroup.com Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:42:34 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: LRP and O2 sensors All things being equal, I've never first hand had that problem. Now if they change the octane or Reed Vapor Levels while doing that then there will be problems, but with as many cos that have done that, there is no reason for it to be a problem. If in doubt just back to basics, reading plugs, and then reading them some more. The plugs will answer your questions. Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 21:10:39 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:10:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:10:39 -0500 From: "John Dammeyer" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Pulse Width at -40 degrees Hi All, Other than the fact that the colder air is denser and drier how much longer should the pulse width be extended relative to a pulse width at say freezing temperatures? 5% 10% 100% 200% Is there anyone out there in a cold climate that can measure the pulse width of a cold engine at -20 to -40 compared to what it is when the engine has been parked in a garage at just above freezing? The problem is that where I live the Winter temperature is currently +2C and still fairly humid in this temperate rain forest. An engine we have installed out where it's -20C has a heck of a time starting unless they warm up the engine compartment with a space heater. I realize this is a problem that people in California do not have. Same with people who only race in the summer. Anyone done and DIY_EFI for an ice racer? Thanks, John From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 21:40:16 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:40:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:40:16 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Pulse Width at -40 degrees Note a universal formula, depends on engine. If you were to look thru the hacs at www.tunercat.com there is lots of useful info about air temp., coolant temps for the gm ecms. Grumpy | Other than the fact that the colder air is denser and drier how much longer | should the pulse width be extended relative to a pulse width at say freezing | temperatures? 5% 10% 100% 200% | | Is there anyone out there in a cold climate that can measure the pulse width of | a cold engine at -20 to -40 compared to what it is when the engine has been | parked in a garage at just above freezing? | | The problem is that where I live the Winter temperature is currently +2C and | still fairly humid in this temperate rain forest. An engine we have installed | out where it's -20C has a heck of a time starting unless they warm up the engine | compartment with a space heater. I realize this is a problem that people in | California do not have. Same with people who only race in the summer. Anyone | done and DIY_EFI for an ice racer? | | Thanks, | | John | | | | From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 21:43:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:43:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:43:30 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: LRP and O2 Very light beige, to bone white (bleached off white color), watch for glue oozing out from the center electrode (heat range/timing). grumpy | OK, here's a true novice question then. Have never owned a car that runs | unleaded, what colour should the plugs be when you are running unleaded, after | all cars on unleaded always seem to have black tailpipes ? | | Dan dzorde@erggroup.com | | | Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:42:34 -0500 | From: "Bruce Plecan" | Subject: Re: LRP and O2 sensors | | All things being equal, I've never first hand had that problem. | Now if they change the octane or Reed Vapor Levels while doing that then | there will be problems, but with as many cos that have done that, there is | no reason for it to be a problem. If in doubt just back to basics, reading | plugs, and then reading them some more. The plugs will answer your | questions. | Grumpy | | | From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 10 21:47:25 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:47:25 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:47:25 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM Geez, not even in the same league. Protractor and X-Acto knife vs AL, and measuring, and figuring out where the notches have to be and slotted for enough adjustment. If I owned a machine shop and had the engine on a stand, I'd still go the dissy route Grumpy | I like the "cut you own wheel" idea with the Crane, very clever. | However, if I am going to go DIS, would it be that much harder to | make a wheel for the crank pulley and use some kind of pickup down there? Is there one you especially like? Thanks in advance. | Jim | >From: "Bruce Plecan" | >Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM | >If your doing, or planning on possibly going DIS, then the Crane wins, and | >get an uncut spare wheel or two. Alllison used to just about give em away | >when you asked for em. | > For the Dissy, it's just like a point signal. | > For DIS, they most often use (4 cyl application), use 6 notches (equally | >spaced), and one offset 10 degrees from one of them. I you get serious | >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch | >fires which coil pack etc.. | >Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 07:52:41 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:52:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 07:52:41 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Ouch! Geez Grumpy, gimme a break. I was replying to the original post by brucep@ptd.net, not to your reply, (got my Bruce's mixed up). You've probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn on this subject, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share it with us. But bear with me a second. I'm facing a similar problem to the dyno-building Bruce (he is testing tractor motors). The problem is that no one has applied knock sensors to my engine (at least not the manufacturer). Maybe there's a KS that will work, maybe not. I've seen a spec sheet for Ford KS that specifies the resonant frequencies for some, but not for any other manufacturers. Since I have worked professionally with noise and signal analysis, I looked to the tools that I used every day for years. Spectrum analysis is one of them. It's just a measurement tool, not abstract theory. When I was in the biz, the instruments cost thousands of dollars. Now it's free for the downloading. I believe that a lot of list members would find a simple cheap system for detecting knock very accurately on any motor a useful tool. Maybe you too. I'll share whatever I find with the list, if there's any interest. Even if turns out to be BS, at least we will have found out what does not work, and move on. Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 08:34:04 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:34:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:34:04 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM Well it certainly pays to ask first. Thanks a bunch. I could always go to a crank wheel later after all the otherstuff is sorted out, but for street use I certainly don't need to. I just wanted to eliminate the dist if possible. So back to the Crane. What electrical input is the ecm looking for from the trigger wheel? Do I build a circuit to condition the Crane box output to the GM ecm, or do you need to make a new driver for the optical sensor itself and have it trigger the ecm directly? Has someone been down this path...sounds like? If you can send me the wheel drawing that would be great. If a fax is less effort let me know. BTW there is absolutely no rush on this. I am one of those "Blessed" with too many projects. Dopey >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:54:10 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM > >Geez, not even in the same league. Protractor and X-Acto knife vs AL, and >measuring, and figuring out where the notches have to be and slotted for >enough adjustment. If I owned a machine shop and had the engine on a stand, >I'd still go the dissy route >Grumpy > > >| I like the "cut you own wheel" idea with the Crane, very clever. >| However, if I am going to go DIS, would it be that much harder to >| make a wheel for the crank pulley and use some kind of pickup down there? >Is there one you especially like? Thanks in advance. >| Jim From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 09:25:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:25:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:25:30 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors For yet another project, is there a nice reliable, relatively easy to mount crank sensor that interfaces easily to the GM ECM's you favor? In this case a dist is not an option. I have provisions to build a mount, make/adapt a crank wheel of some type or precisely install magnets in a pulley or even a flywheel. Does the GM DIS have 5 or 6k rpm limits, something I read somewhere indicated that, but they may have been talking about HEI coils? All this stuff I am playing with needs to make it to 6.5K, the race app at least 8500. Dopey >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch >| >fires which coil pack etc.. >| >Grumpy > >------------------------------ From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 13:15:15 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:15:15 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:15:15 -0500 From: steve ravet MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Knock sensor on Dyno > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) > From: Carter Shore > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno > > Bruce, > I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive > to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, > etc. In other words, they are specific to a given > engine. > > I have been working with freeware audio spectrum > analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By > connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and > then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block > with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic > frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The > resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can > safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even > better results. > > Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look > for knock signals for that specific motor. > > All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone > (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. > > YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. Carter -- what is this software called and where is it available from? This is very interesting. --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 16:43:43 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:43:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:43:43 -0500 From: "Buchholz, Steven" Subject: Knock Sensing Some time ago I found a reasonable reference on knock detection on TI's website ... I checked and found it is still there ... here's an abstract: ENGINE KNOCK DETECTION USING SPECTRAL ANALYSIS WITH TMS320C25 OR TMS320C30 DSPS - An efficient method of detecting combustion engine knock is using spectral analysis. The detection process algorithm adapts to a no-knock reference at varying speeds and loads by using multiple frequencies. This document presents an problem overview, current technology, and two implementation examples are given to aid in the development of system specific hardware and software. The first system is based on the 32-bit floating-point TMS320C30 DSP with software written in C. The second is production oriented using a TMS320C25 16-bit fixed-point DSP and assembler software. The appendix contains the code for each implementation. http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/psheets/abstract/apps/spra039.htm I have been contemplating the addition of a knock sensor to an engine which did not originally have one so that I can start tweaking the performance. While this reference does give a good background into the whys and hows from a DSP standpoint, it doesn't go into strategies for mounting sensor(s) for best results. Are there any references that discuss this sort of issue? Does anyone know any companies who actually make the sensors? I'd love to see specs for typical sensors (frequency response and such). The TI reference states that there are two types of "indirect" knock sensors, ones that are tuned to specific frequencies and broadband units. From what I've seen I'm thinking that most if not all of the knock sensors I've seen have been tuned units to minimize the amount of subsequent processing required. It seems to me that if one were contemplating adding a knock sensor to an engine, the broadband approach might be the preferred solution. Steve Buchholz San Jose, CA (USA) From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 18:42:17 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:42:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:42:17 -0500 From: Donald Whisnant MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 68HC11 Disassembler... For people who have wanted to download my HC11 disassembler during this past month-and-a-half or so and found that my website was down, I just wanted to let you know that it is back up and running and appologize for any inconvenience... I moved to switch jobs and am now on a different internet service, though from the user perspective, the site appears the same... The current address for the front-end of the site is: http://dewhisna.home.netcom.com The HC11 disassembler link can be found on the download page: http://dewhisna.home.netcom.com/download.html My old ISP still has my site active, though I don't know how long they will keep it active... There you'll only find a link to this new location... And unfortunately, all of the search engines still only have the old site listed... I will be putting up a mirror for this new front-end of the site once I get the details worked out with my new ISP... And I eventually plan to register a name for the site... But in the meantime, use the above address and enjoy... As for the next version (1.2), it is basically complete except for the manual re-writes -- I've been too busy with the job switch and relocation to get it completed yet -- but it's coming (I promise)... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@ix.netcom.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 18:55:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:55:32 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:55:32 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors First one that jumps to mind is the late vortec. You really need to find a parts house that has some catalogs with photos for part ID'ing. They do exist from Delco, and Standard Electronics. Grumpy | For yet another project, is there a nice reliable, relatively easy to mount crank sensor that interfaces easily to the GM ECM's you favor? | In this case a dist is not an option. | I have provisions to build a mount, make/adapt a crank wheel of some type or precisely install magnets in a pulley or even a flywheel. | Does the GM DIS have 5 or 6k rpm limits, something I read somewhere indicated that, but they may have been talking about HEI coils? Nope, check out the GN Type list info.. Almost stockers can run to 6.5K. GM includes a "rev limit" to corral warranty costs, ie weak valve springs, limited injector size. Too often that gets credit as a weak ignition. All this stuff I am playing with needs to make it | to 6.5K, the race app at least 8500. | | Dopey | | >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch | >| >fires which coil pack etc.. | >| >Grumpy | > | >------------------------------ | From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 20:01:39 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:01:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:01:39 -0500 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16 howdy and thanks for the tip to go look at the fuel injection parts MSD has. (I was talking about mounting injectors. as some of you probably know, msd has some flexible fuel hose hardware, "injector manifold pocket, epoxy-in" pn 2145. and a range of hose hardware, also injectors. by any chance does anyone have 4 of these hanging around ? I really only need 2 right now, I'd hate to have to buy 8 (set). I suspect that I'll buy injectors from msd also, I have to figure out the flow. I was going to look up the flow rate of the bosch injectors I got from my donor 2.3 volvo and double that. does anyone know if bosch injectors are low impedence or not ? they were batch fired by the volvo jettronic lh computer, I'm trying to figure out if I buy msd injectors, if my computer will drive them directly or not. thanks. Ted Stowe -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu [mailto:DIY_EFI-Digest-Owner@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 12:00 PM To: DIY_EFI-Digest@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16 DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, January 11 2000 Volume 05 : Number 016 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Re: TWM & GMECM Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors Re: Knock sensor on Dyno See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Ouch! Geez Grumpy, gimme a break. I was replying to the original post by brucep@ptd.net, not to your reply, (got my Bruce's mixed up). You've probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn on this subject, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share it with us. But bear with me a second. I'm facing a similar problem to the dyno-building Bruce (he is testing tractor motors). The problem is that no one has applied knock sensors to my engine (at least not the manufacturer). Maybe there's a KS that will work, maybe not. I've seen a spec sheet for Ford KS that specifies the resonant frequencies for some, but not for any other manufacturers. Since I have worked professionally with noise and signal analysis, I looked to the tools that I used every day for years. Spectrum analysis is one of them. It's just a measurement tool, not abstract theory. When I was in the biz, the instruments cost thousands of dollars. Now it's free for the downloading. I believe that a lot of list members would find a simple cheap system for detecting knock very accurately on any motor a useful tool. Maybe you too. I'll share whatever I find with the list, if there's any interest. Even if turns out to be BS, at least we will have found out what does not work, and move on. Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 04:52:37 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #15:Knock Sensors Ouch! Geez Grumpy, gimme a break. I was replying to the original post by brucep@ptd.net, not to your reply, (got my Bruce's mixed up). You've probably forgotten more than I'll ever learn on this subject, and I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share it with us. But bear with me a second. I'm facing a similar problem to the dyno-building Bruce (he is testing tractor motors). The problem is that no one has applied knock sensors to my engine (at least not the manufacturer). Maybe there's a KS that will work, maybe not. I've seen a spec sheet for Ford KS that specifies the resonant frequencies for some, but not for any other manufacturers. Since I have worked professionally with noise and signal analysis, I looked to the tools that I used every day for years. Spectrum analysis is one of them. It's just a measurement tool, not abstract theory. When I was in the biz, the instruments cost thousands of dollars. Now it's free for the downloading. I believe that a lot of list members would find a simple cheap system for detecting knock very accurately on any motor a useful tool. Maybe you too. I'll share whatever I find with the list, if there's any interest. Even if turns out to be BS, at least we will have found out what does not work, and move on. Thanks, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:32:54 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM Well it certainly pays to ask first. Thanks a bunch. I could always go to a crank wheel later after all the otherstuff is sorted out, but for street use I certainly don't need to. I just wanted to eliminate the dist if possible. So back to the Crane. What electrical input is the ecm looking for from the trigger wheel? Do I build a circuit to condition the Crane box output to the GM ecm, or do you need to make a new driver for the optical sensor itself and have it trigger the ecm directly? Has someone been down this path...sounds like? If you can send me the wheel drawing that would be great. If a fax is less effort let me know. BTW there is absolutely no rush on this. I am one of those "Blessed" with too many projects. Dopey >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 21:54:10 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM > >Geez, not even in the same league. Protractor and X-Acto knife vs AL, and >measuring, and figuring out where the notches have to be and slotted for >enough adjustment. If I owned a machine shop and had the engine on a stand, >I'd still go the dissy route >Grumpy > > >| I like the "cut you own wheel" idea with the Crane, very clever. >| However, if I am going to go DIS, would it be that much harder to >| make a wheel for the crank pulley and use some kind of pickup down there? >Is there one you especially like? Thanks in advance. >| Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:24:50 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors For yet another project, is there a nice reliable, relatively easy to mount crank sensor that interfaces easily to the GM ECM's you favor? In this case a dist is not an option. I have provisions to build a mount, make/adapt a crank wheel of some type or precisely install magnets in a pulley or even a flywheel. Does the GM DIS have 5 or 6k rpm limits, something I read somewhere indicated that, but they may have been talking about HEI coils? All this stuff I am playing with needs to make it to 6.5K, the race app at least 8500. Dopey >about the DIS, I'll scan a diagram showing the notches/offset/which notch >| >fires which coil pack etc.. >| >Grumpy > >------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 12:11:58 -0600 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: Knock sensor on Dyno > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) > From: Carter Shore > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #14:Knock sensor on Dyno > > Bruce, > I believe that the sensors are built to be sensitive > to specific frequencies, to minimize false trigger, > etc. In other words, they are specific to a given > engine. > > I have been working with freeware audio spectrum > analyzer program that uses the sound card on a PC. By > connecting a wide band microphone to the motor, and > then simulating knock (resembles pounding on the block > with a hammer or broomstick), the characteristic > frequencies of a given motor can be determined. The > resonant frequencies show up as spikes. If you can > safely induce actual knock in the running motor, even > better results. > > Using that info, the PC software can be set up to look > for knock signals for that specific motor. > > All freeware, just need to bolt on a microphone > (guitar mic?) Save the results on a floppy. > > YMMV, I'm just playing with it right now. Carter -- what is this software called and where is it available from? This is very interesting. - --steve - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 20:04:27 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:04:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:04:27 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16:Knock Sensor Some requests for the software I'm playing with. It's a program called 'spectragraph', available for download at: www.monumental.com/rshorne/gram.html There may be other better ones out there, but this one seemed to fit my needs. If this works, maybe we could keep a library of 'knock signatures' by engine. There's an app note for a chip that does FFT for KS, but maybe overkill; if you can find the fundamental resonant knock freq with better than 6 dB S/N ratio, why look any further? On the other hand, multiple mics and holographic audio imaging could allow you to pinpoint not just knock to the individual cylinder, but maybe detect impending bearing failures etc. before they go catastrophic. What about an 'active' electronic crankshaft damper that attenuates 'on the fly'. Oops, sorry for the geek out. Anyway. I wonder what kinds of things might influence the knock signature? Maybe forged vs cast crank? Certainly aluminum vs cast iron block/heads. Maybe the intake manifold or headers. Aluminum flywheel? Different crank dampers? Would the KS change if you used filler in the water jackets? What about just bore/stroke changes? Operating temperature? Manual vs auto trans? Lot's of questions, no answers yet. Might be it just doesn't matter. We'll see. Could be fun. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 20:22:05 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:22:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:22:05 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #16:Knock Sensor | If this works, maybe we could keep a library of 'knock | signatures' by engine. Sure seems like putting alot of effort into a dead ended subject, thou The basic flaw with all this is that all the stuff you mention below effects an acoustic sensor. An acoustic sensor, is a half hearted attempt at knock detection, since so many items can false trigger it. Why not work on a Ion knock detection strategy. Something that looks for any knock on any engine, rather then some feable side effects of detonation. | | There's an app note for a chip that does FFT for KS, | but maybe overkill; if you can find the fundamental | resonant knock freq with better than 6 dB S/N ratio, | why look any further? | | On the other hand, multiple mics and holographic audio | imaging could allow you to pinpoint not just knock to | the individual cylinder, but maybe detect impending | bearing failures etc. before they go catastrophic. | What about an 'active' electronic crankshaft damper | that attenuates 'on the fly'. Listen for enough noises, adn the thing will always be triggering. | | Oops, sorry for the geek out. Anyway. | | I wonder what kinds of things might influence the | knock signature? Maybe forged vs cast crank? Certainly | aluminum vs cast iron block/heads. Maybe the intake | manifold or headers. Aluminum flywheel? Different | crank dampers? Would the KS change if you used filler | in the water jackets? What about just bore/stroke | changes? Operating temperature? Manual vs auto trans? And most any mechanical lifter cam drives it into fits....... Oh well. Grumpy | | Lot's of questions, no answers yet. Might be it just | doesn't matter. We'll see. Could be fun. | | Carter | | __________________________________________________ | Do You Yahoo!? | Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. | http://im.yahoo.com | From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 11 22:40:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:40:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:40:13 -0500 From: Bill Sundahl MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Knock sensor on dyno Take a look at http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm This shows some of the work that I have done on recording and analyzing the signal off of an Eagle Talon knock sensor. The sensor does not seem to be "tuned" that I can tell, it's just a wide band microphone. I am assuming that the GM sensors are very similar. The Talon uses a fancy filter circuit inside the ECU to detect knock, but I have never been able to figure out exactly what it looks for in the signal. -Bill From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 08:40:04 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:40:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:40:04 -0500 From: Rodney_L_Wiggins@keybank.com Subject: Re: Knock sensor. It seems this discussion has illustrated two separate camps on the Knock sensor issue: the "simple microphone camp" and the "far more complicated camp". No offense intended for either group. For those in the "simple microphone" camp, MSD makes a universal knock sensor with an LED bar graph and alarm. Summit Racing sells it for about $150. It has adjustment for sensitivity and volume. It comes with a threaded "microphone" and an adapter to fit different size holes. I'm not sure of the manufacturer or availability of the microphone alone. (if someone knows, please tell me, I need to replace mine). It appears to be working on my application, but I'm sure its not as good as it could be, and I certainly wouldn't tune an engine by it. But when there was a problem it has warned me of it before I could actually hear the detonation. Perhaps everyone knows about this device but no one mentioned it due to a consensus that it is junk. If so, I apologize. Rod From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 08:59:45 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:59:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:59:45 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #17 Thanks. OOOH My wife has a Tahoe, where is that ECM? Yet another way to piss her off! My GM literature is on the way! That should answer some of the more basic questions and prompt alot more. Jim From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: GMECM and Crank Sensors First one that jumps to mind is the late vortec. You really need to find a parts house that has some catalogs with photos for part ID'ing. They do exist from Delco, and Standard Electronics. Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 09:46:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:46:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:46:13 -0500 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Knock Sensor on Dyno At 05:00 11/01/00 -0500, you wrote: >> >> Knock Sensor on Dyno >> >> See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the >> DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. >> >> I am currently building a eddy current dynamometer for testing small engines >> up to 70 ft lbs of torque. I am working on the instrumentation now and I was >> reading the archive and started thinking about knock sensing. > >> like to use a sensor out of the junkyard to keep costs down so any ideas of >> which one would suit me the best (partial to GM parts)? > >The one problem that comes to mind if you were using the GM knock sensors >is the sonic qualities of knocking in your small engine. From what I've >read, the knock sensor is tuned to specifically hear+amplify the >characteristic knock sound for that bore diameter, and block. GM has had >several different knock sensors, and even had a different one for the LT1 >and LT4, even though they have the same dimensions (LT4 was supposedly a >little noisier). If you have the same bore, then I guess the knock would >sound similar. If it was me I would just plant a microphone somewhere on the block then use software to sort out what is and what isn't just like humans do.... Much easier to do than tuning sensors... the amount you pay for Hi-fi Microphones/speakers is testament to this. Ade From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 10:25:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:25:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:25:12 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #17:Knock sensor, etc. Thanks Bruce, I had not thought about noise contribution from mech valvetrain. And of course, IGOR will allow some very accurate knock detection, but I didn't think it was available yet. Here's a Q, do you know how/if GM systems handle false KS trigger, vs RPM? For example, say an ECU has a KS sensitive to say, 4,000 Hz. Frequency of bormal internal noise from the motor varies with RPM, so at some RPM, it will also create 4,000 Hz noise that would trigger the KS. Does the code ignore KS at certain RPM? Bill, I looked at your site, it's good stuff. I had seen the app note, was looking for a simpler (lazy and cheap) way to do it. Plus, if my motor's knock signature matched a stock unit, I could just use off the shelf stuff. I downloaded your knocking WAV file, to play with. I did not see a display where you had examined the signal in 'line' or 'bar' mode. This would show up any resonant freq and harmonics as spikes, much easier to pick out specific components of a sound. Requires a sound card in PC, so I'll have to wait 'till I get home to try it. Does anyone have access to a supply of different KS? It might be useful to document the resonant freq and output levels of various stock parts. Just need a signal generator and a scope (or Spectrograph). I'll volunteer to run the tests, if we can work out a way to ship the units. Some details to hash out if any interest. Thanks all, Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 14:06:23 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:06:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:06:23 -0500 From: cwagner@info2000.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: injectors I have a couple of injectors that I need flow rates for. I have looked around and have found nothing. Maybe the people on the list could help. Here are the numbers: Bosch 0 280 150 209 Bosch 0 280 150 902 Siemens 4418474 With this, what is the formula to get sec/gram from #/hr or grams/sec. I haven't messed with this stuff that much. From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 14:11:49 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:11:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:11:49 -0500 From: "Daniel R. Henriksson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MC6803U4 info... Hi I'm in the process of reverse-engineering a Weber/Marelli ECU (IAW048/01) and i need to clarify some things about the CPU. Does anyone know the difference between the 6803C and the 6803U4? After digging on the net i have found out that the 6803U4 has an additional 64 bytes of onboard RAM at 0x40-0x7f. But i suspect there is some other differences, what about timer capabilities, there is a new SFR at 0x18 that's supposedly a timer control register, anyone know the specs. for that register? If anyone has any additional information then please inform me! Some of my findings can be viewed at: http://www.ludd.luth.se/~rotax/ BR Daniel Henriksson rotax@ludd.luth.se From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:10:51 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:10:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:10:51 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #17:Knock sensor, etc. | Thanks Bruce, | I had not thought about noise contribution from mech | valvetrain. And of course, IGOR will allow some very | accurate knock detection, but I didn't think it was | available yet. IGOR, no, but SAAB's been using it for years. | Here's a Q, do you know how/if GM systems handle false | KS trigger, vs RPM? Nope they don't handle vs rpm, 800 rpm, 2000, 4000, 8000, if it's set for 4,000Hz, and hears the right sound off goes the timing. I've seen cars set 12d retard wile cranking. That's also why I consider acoustic sensors as a joke, and not to be trused. | For example, say an ECU has a KS sensitive to say, | 4,000 Hz. Frequency of bormal internal noise from the | motor varies with RPM, so at some RPM, it will also | create 4,000 Hz noise that would trigger the KS. Does | the code ignore KS at certain RPM? See above. Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:24:16 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:24:16 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:24:16 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Knock sensor on dyno What you call AE Enrichment noise might be trace detonation (gm uses a "burst knock table to cover this situation in some applications) Grumpy | Take a look at | http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm | | This shows some of the work that I have done on recording and analyzing | the signal off of an Eagle Talon knock sensor. The sensor does not | seem to be "tuned" that I can tell, it's just a wide band microphone. | I am assuming that the GM sensors are very similar. | | The Talon uses a fancy filter circuit inside the ECU to detect knock, | but I have never been able to figure out exactly what it looks for | in the signal. | | -Bill | From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:35:59 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:35:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:35:59 -0500 From: "Ken Kelly" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Injector Sizes for CrossFire Does anyone know what the difference between the two actually is? Or the reasoning why they had two different sized injectors? Ken Kelly (#2) From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:38:33 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:38:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:38:33 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Injector Sizes for CrossFire As I recall 4-5 lbs/hr.. The diference in size was due to the fact one ran with the fuel pressure regulator, andf the other with the accumulator. Grumpy | Does anyone know what the difference between the two actually is? Or the | reasoning why they had two different sized injectors? | Ken Kelly (#2) From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 18:49:18 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:49:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:49:18 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: TWM & GMECM | Well it certainly pays to ask first. Thanks a bunch. | I could always go to a crank wheel later after all the otherstuff | is sorted out, but for street use I certainly don't need to. | I just wanted to eliminate the dist if possible. | So back to the Crane. What electrical input is the ecm looking for | from the trigger wheel? Crank, and cam sensor wire into the DIS module. On some PCMs the sensor goes directly to the pcm. So an ecm doesn't look for a signal from the sensor Now the input to the DIS varies, by type some are Hall effect sensors, and some are reluctor. So you gotta figure out what ya got, and work from there. Grumpy | Do I build a circuit to condition the Crane box output to the GM ecm, | or do you need to make a new driver for the optical sensor itself and have it trigger the ecm directly? Has someone been down this path...sounds like? Your going to need to go from the coil trigger output of the crank to the sensor input to the DIS, and again it varies. | If you can send me the wheel drawing that would be great. If a fax | is less effort let me know. BTW there is absolutely no rush on this. | I am one of those "Blessed" with too many projects. | Dopey From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 12 23:25:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:25:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 23:25:53 -0500 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: injector questions - sleepless in Seattle ok, got some injector questions. I have an 1800 cc, (1798) motor, (77 mgb) 90 hp, saimsed intake ports, I think the stromberg cd was something like 200 cfm but I might be wrong. I am going to put 2 injectors in it. and an air mass sensor. the donor efi car used 4 bosch injectors for 2300 cc according to the data I could find on the web, the motor (b230f), used a 0 280 150 762 bosch injector. these had fuel rails, and are listed as 214 cc per minute, or 21 lbs per hour. and a chart at www.wolfems.com.au/injector_flow_rates.htm tells me that these injectors were good for 42.8 hp each. I can't remember the actual rail pressure in their natural environment, (86 240dl). standard bosch jet-jh so if I scale it up a bit , and for argument's sake use the volume of the injectors that I have. (they were all batch fired btw). I would then need to get 2 injectors that were low impedance, to make them look like bosch injectors to the ecm, and they would have to have a flow rate of 428 cc per minute or 42 lbs per hour. question 1 : does this math sound correct ? I wonder about this because they were batch fired. this means that they were fired when there was no benefit to do so, the expended fuel must of gone somewhere. I can't work out the math in my head to take into account the batch-fired effect. ok well, I am going to use the msd epoxy injector mounts, I think that these are made for GM mounting specs. or am I misreading their fuel injection catalog incorrectly ? it seems that you can use their injectors to replace gm injectors, if that's the case I'm assuming a gm injector will fit in their mount. no one that I can tell, makes mounts like this for bosch injectors, besides the bosch injectors used a fuel rail anyway, I really liked the flexible fuel hose hardware from msd. the angles of the injectors would preclude a normal fuel rail. I can't find an msd injector that does 42 lbs per hour. they jump from 34 to 50 lb/hr. where would I find a gm parts list that rates stock gm injectors by flow volume/impedance ? question 2: or am I digging a hole for myself ? the ecm I have is going to think it's talking to a specific environment, i.e. stock rail pressure, combined flow volume etc. as usual thanks for your expert advice. Ted NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this email in error, and delete the copy you received. Thank you. From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 00:02:36 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:02:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 00:02:36 -0500 From: brucep@ptd.net Subject: knock sensor/dyno Thanks for all the great things to think about! I like the microphone/software idea, this would allow me to analyze a dyno run. Not just for knock but what ever else I could see or figureout. More data to look at. Unfortunatly, I can't at this time put data acquisition on the dyno due to lack of $$$'s so I am looking for "cheap" ways of doing things. Sorry for the lack of Fuel injection content but it did spark some thoughts. "the other Bruce" From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 03:42:07 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:42:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 03:42:07 -0500 From: Greg Tully MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Turbo motor Hi I am running the efi332 two layer cpu board and the i/o board in my car. Just doing spark, boost control for the moment. I am picking the signal off of the distributor with the TPU PPWA, and setting advance, retard, and turbo boost. No problems with cpu board yet but still looking.. I am using a map sensor from a mid 80's (chrysler,dodge,plymouth) turbo K car. There are a lot of these cars in the wrecking yards. This is a one atmosphere boost unit. It has a ground wire, 5 volt supply wire and a sense wire. Measured data: Pressure output volts 30" hg .56 15" hg 1.30 0 2.47 5psi 3.25 10psi 4.13 15psi 5.00 Under boost I have noticed that my car has a tendency to ping more at 3000 rpm , which I would guess is the tuned configuration of the motor. So boost and/or timing can be reduced. If the timing is reduced to prevent any detonation, and the boost is left alone. It will generate spectacular boost numbers and it runs strong. But it runs about the same when I reduce the timing a little bit and limit the boost. So it looks like there are two different ways to get to the same point. So what is the best way to tune a turbocharger motor? I would guess reducing the timing a little, and then limit boost to prevent detonation... Also I have noticed that GM spark rpm/load tables arrays seem to be 16 bytes wide, even when its a Grand National turbo motor. It seems like that if its a one atmosphere map unit the table should be 32 bytes wide for the same resolution. Any comments on this one? My car is a 4 cyl turbocharger Saab, dual overhead cams, four valves per cylinder, with intercooler.. not bad for a stock 1989 car. Its not a performance car, its heavy and the transmission is weak, but it is an interesting platform to fool around with. Aloha Greg From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 09:23:04 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:23:04 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:23:04 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Turbo motor | | Under boost I have noticed that my car has a tendency to ping more at | 3000 rpm , which I would guess is the tuned configuration of the motor. | So boost and/or timing can be reduced. If the timing is reduced to | prevent any detonation, and the boost is left alone. It will generate | spectacular boost numbers and it runs strong. But it runs about the same | when I reduce the timing a little bit and limit the boost. So it looks | like there are two different ways to get to the same point. So what is | the best way to tune a turbocharger motor? I would guess reducing the | timing a little, and then limit boost to prevent detonation... There's never a good reason to burn more fuel then what the engine needs. All the extra carbon has to go somewhere. If you do EGT's AFR and Plug reading they all should point to one being better than another. | Also I have noticed that GM spark rpm/load tables arrays seem to be 16 | bytes wide, even when its a Grand National turbo motor. It seems like | that if its a one atmosphere map unit the table should be 32 bytes wide | for the same resolution. Any comments on this one? Well, they been running the Buicks since 86 with the intercooler, and making good HP. The syclones since 91. I'd say that the resolution is good enough. Ya, might be nicer, but as far as necessary, that's your call. To me 19 would be perfect, @ 500rpm steps. The big isue is running the right MAP so you don't run out of CALIBRATION. If ya run 14 PSI of boost run a 2bar MAP. If you run 18 use a 3 bar MAP. That's how I see things Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 15:45:43 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:45:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:45:43 -0500 From: steve ravet MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 4.97sec, 314 mph Got this email from a WWW browser. Not sure exactly what he's trying to build, but it sounds like an interesting project. Please reply to him directly since he's not on the list. --steve TobyTraut@aol.com wrote: > > Sir, > > I wandered across your DIY EFI page tonight, and thought that someone may be > interested in a project I would like to try. > > I own a turbo-jet powered drag car. I have eliminated the stock > hydro-mechanical fuel control, and replaced it with an electronic pressure > control through the stock mechanical injectors. > > I have recently become interested in electronics, and would like to build a > true feedback fuel control, and also get rid of the mechanical overspeed > governer, while also maybe incorporating a data-logger. This is a pretty > overwhelming project for a beginner. > > This car has run the quarter mile in 4.97 seconds, at over 314 mph, and > perhaps it would make an interesting project for an electronic engineering > student. I can't afford to hire someone to do it, but I think I can afford to > pay for materials. > > Perhaps even if someone would just want to design a system, I could try my > hand at assembly. > > If anyone is interested, they can e-mail me at Tobytraut@aol.com. I have > attached a photo of the car, it's not very good, but it is the only one I > have scanned. > > Thank You, > > Toby Ehrmantraut > Odyssey Jet -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 19:49:08 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:49:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 19:49:08 -0500 From: Benoit Robert MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Knock sensor chip from Harris (as seen somewhere else) Harris makes (or used to make) a chip called an Engine Knock Signal Processor. The part number is HIP9010 and you can easily get a hold of the data sheets with their Automatic FaxBack system at 407-724-7800. It uses two piezo sensors and switches one for sensing knock and the other to cancel background noise. The chip will subtract the background noise and filter based on the parameters sent to the chip. Hookup is via an SPI bus and you can program reference filter frequency, knock filter frequency and a bunch of other things. I haven't used it but from the data sheet, it looked like pretty comprehensive. Good reading. Regards to all, B.Robert From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 13 20:32:56 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:32:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 20:32:56 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Knock sensor chip from Harris I tried tracking it down one time, and they had discontinued it, and the there was supposedly one available from France, and never got anywhere with it. If anyone has a lead on this I'd like to hear about it. Course I never have any luck with ICs. Grumpy | (as seen somewhere else) | Harris makes (or used to make) a chip called | an Engine Knock Signal Processor. The part | number is HIP9010 and you can easily get | a hold of the data sheets with their | Automatic FaxBack system at 407-724-7800. | It uses two piezo sensors and switches | one for sensing knock and the other to | cancel background noise. The chip will | subtract the background noise and filter | based on the parameters sent to the chip. | Hookup is via an SPI bus and you can program | reference filter frequency, knock filter | frequency and a bunch of other things. | I haven't used it but from the data sheet, | it looked like pretty comprehensive. Good | reading. | Regards to all, B.Robert From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 14 10:54:23 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:54:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:54:23 -0500 From: Jim Fitzgerald Subject: Re: DIY_EFI V5 #21, Knock S. Harris is now Intersil, for the HIP9010/11 knock sensor info go to: www.intersil.com/auto/engine.asp#KNOCK I also found hundreds of the parts on the surplus market. Jim F. From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 15 15:09:39 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 15:09:39 -0500 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 15:09:39 -0500 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: MSD fuel injection parts Help, I've searched all over the net for MSD fuel injection site, all I can get is the MSD Ignition site, and can't find any FI stuff there. Can someone please email me the URL? (esearch challenged) Carter clshore@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 15 16:43:03 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:43:03 -0500 Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:43:03 -0500 From: "Jason R. Haines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: source for larger Viper injectors? Does anyone know of a source for larger injectors for the Dodge Viper? They use "bottom feed" Siemens injectors (high impedance) and I can't seem to find larger injectors anywhere. The 1996 and newer GTS (1997 and newer RT10) cars seem to have larger injectors than the older cars did but I need bigger still. Thanks, Jason From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 01:27:08 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:27:08 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:27:08 -0500 From: Andy Wyatt MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Spark timing G'day all, I'm fairly new to this news group, I've been lurking for about a week, and I've got a question about ECUs in general. I'm currently building an EFI computer for my 83 Pusar Exa turbo, and have the fuel running great, currently I'm working on spark. Question is: How do most ECUs for turbo cars handle spark timing? My car does not have a MAP sensor as standard, so it could only determine by airflow/rpm. It also doesn't have a throttle position sensor, just a switch which closes when the throttle is fully closed. Do they just have a lookup table (map) as for fuel? Or do they have a certain amount of base timing, then an algorithm to determine centrifugal advance and vacuum advance/boost retard? There is nothing in the Nissan manual about it; all it says is that it runs 15 degrees advance at idle (pretty high, I thought). Would it be less during cranking? Anyone ever mapped ignition timing for a 1.5L turbo engine? Also, is there any advantage of sequential injection over group fire other than the increased atomisation you'd expect from injecting the fuel while the air is flowing through the inlet port? I heard someone tried swapping the injector leads from a sequential injection engine around so they were all wrong, and dynoed it to find there was no difference in power output, just in emissions at idle... Any help would be greatly appreciated Andy W :-D From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 09:33:18 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:33:18 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:33:18 -0500 From: ECMnut@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #23 > G'day all, > I'm fairly new to this news group, I've been lurking for about a week, and > I've got a question about ECUs in general. I'm currently building an EFI > computer for my 83 Pusar Exa turbo, and have the fuel running great, > currently I'm working on spark. Greetings Andy, it's great to have you aboard.. There are two ways that the GM turbo car ECMs handle timing. 1. Without using a MAP sensor, they rely on mass air flow & RPM numbers to determine engine load (LV8). in the maf systems, they assume "high air flow" + "low rpm" must mean that the engine is heavily loaded. The chip has a timing table that uses LV8 & RPM lookups. 2. With the MAP sensor system, they use a MAP vs RPM table for the lookups. Each system has its strong / weak points. HTH Mike V . From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 15:37:45 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:37:45 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:37:45 -0500 From: clive@problem.org (Clive Apps - 510-0020 ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Vortec 4.3 & 747 anyone ever swapped a 4.3 late model ~@00hp Vortec into a 86 Vintage vehicle with a 727 and 4.3 original what cals di you use in the 747 Thanks Clive From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 15:44:03 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:44:03 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 15:44:03 -0500 From: "Scott Croughwell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Knock on turbo motor. Hi guys, Been a lurker on the Digest for a while, and decided I'd speak up some. :-) > | Under boost I have noticed that my car has a tendency to ping more at > | 3000 rpm , which I would guess is the tuned configuration of the motor. I don't know what kind of car you're driving, but I'd be willing to bet you have your EGR disconnected. That will cause knock at certain RPM (depending on car) even under light loads. The knock is caused by a lack of exhaust flow back to the intake which cools the fresh charge. Scott From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 16:53:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:53:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 16:53:12 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Knock on turbo motor. Oh that makes sense Grumpy Not | > | Under boost I have noticed that my car has a tendency to ping more at | > | 3000 rpm , which I would guess is the tuned configuration of the motor. | | I don't know what kind of car you're driving, but I'd be willing to bet you | have your EGR disconnected. That will cause knock at certain RPM (depending | on car) even under light loads. The knock is caused by a lack of exhaust | flow back to the intake which cools the fresh charge. | Scott From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 17:46:54 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:46:54 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:46:54 -0500 From: William Brennan MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: New to the List. Hello all, I am new to the list, but like everyone I want to build a EFI for my car. I have read through the archives and I just have a few questions. I am also new to the Microcontroller world (Haven't bought anything yet, just a lot of reading) and the likes, so please bear with me. It seems that the MicroChips are the easiest to start learning on. Am I correct on this? I would like to update the program via my laptop, so which chip series might be the best? What books or software hardware etc etc would I need. I know a lot about cars, just not the electronic stuff just yet, but I am willing to learn. Any help would be apreciated. And if it matters, I am going to put the EFI on a 1971 Chevelle w/ a 498" Nitrous breathing rat motor for Drag Racing only, and maybe put the EFI on my TR7 when I drop the 5.2l rover v8 into it...Thanks!! Lee From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 16 18:56:26 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:56:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:56:26 -0500 From: "Walter Sherwin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: MSD Fuel Injection They do not have a "web presence". You have to call them @ MSD's main phone number, and request their catalogue through the mail. The catalogue is rather thin, but contains a lot of neat stuff. Walt. >Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) >From: Carter Shore >Subject: MSD fuel injection parts > >Help, >I've searched all over the net for MSD fuel injection >site, all I can get is the MSD Ignition site, and >can't find any FI stuff there. >Can someone please email me the URL? > >(esearch challenged) >Carter From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 13:13:56 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:13:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:13:56 -0500 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Lamda sensor mounting Hi, I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the mixture. Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the sensor? Close to the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. Thanks, Ade From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 14:46:37 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:46:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:46:37 -0500 From: "Gareth Jones" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Lambda Value Hi, I'm new to this game and I'm aiming to start small with a mixture meter, driven by an O2 sensor. I have a lot of information on lambda sensor output values, particularly voltage against lambda value. I know that lambda 1.0 is equivalent to 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. What I really need to know is what lambda values relate to other air/fuel ratios, particularly in the area of 12.5:1 - 13:1. Does anybody have the answers, or can anybody point me in the direction of some relevant web resources? TIA Gareth Jones From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 16:22:02 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:22:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:22:02 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Lambda Value Been covered a thousand times in the archives. Also, I'd at one time poted some dream voltages there for the gm 1-2 wire sensors. You'll understand the term dream after reading the posts. Grumpy | I'm new to this game and I'm aiming to start small with a mixture meter, | driven by an O2 sensor. I have a lot of information on lambda sensor output | values, particularly voltage against lambda value. I know that lambda 1.0 is | equivalent to 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. What I really need to know is what | lambda values relate to other air/fuel ratios, particularly in the area of | 12.5:1 - 13:1. | Does anybody have the answers, or can anybody point me in the direction of | some relevant web resources? | Gareth Jones From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 21:05:42 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:05:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:05:42 -0500 From: "Tom Parker" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Lamda sensor mounting Ade + Lamb Chop wrote: >Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the sensor? Close to >the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust >manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the >cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur >to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. I have a mini also, and mine is mounted just after the branches of the exhaust manifold come together. I use a heated sensor and without the heater it doesn't read at idle, or low cruise. With the heater it seems to work at all power outputs though. -- Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 21:18:16 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:18:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:18:16 -0500 From: Andy Wyatt MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Lambda Value Regarding Gareth's question about O2 sensors.. I know a very little about EGO sensors, which I learnt from an article in Silicon Chip electronics magazine (in Oz), November 1995. It show a graph of voltage against Lambda for a "typical" sensor. It says with a lambda of 0.94, it will develop a voltage of a bit over 0.9V. The graph isn't very well calibrated, so it ain't very useful, but from what I can tell your typical EGO sensor is only really accurate around stoic. Even then there is hysteresis, which means that the curve you trace out is a different shape when going from rich to lean from the curve going from lean to rich. The graph is VERY steep around stoic point, then it becomes quite flat at lambda values below 0.96 and above 1.05. This is only for a typical EGO sensor, which is only designed to work around stoic, so that EFI cars can keep their emissions down. You can get wideband EGO sensors, which are fairly expensive, from what I hear. If it's any encouragement, though, I've just tuned my ECU by using an EGO sensor which I got from a wrecker (actually it was free, it was on the exhaust manifold of an engine I bought), and though I have no idea of how accurate it is, it seemed to work OK. Have a good one Andy W :-D From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 21:18:19 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:18:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:18:19 -0500 From: Andy Wyatt MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #25 Regarding William Brennan's idea about building an ECU. > I am new to the list, but like everyone I want to build a EFI for my > car. I have read through the archives and I just have a few questions. > I am also new to the Microcontroller world (Haven't bought anything yet, > just a lot of reading) and the likes, so please bear with me. It seems > that the MicroChips are the easiest to start learning on. Am I correct > on this? Yeah, I s'pose so. If you're talking about PICs, you're probably right. You can get C compilers, Assemblers, Simulators and even BASIC compilers for the PICs off the net somewhere or other. I'm not sure that a PIC will have the processing power you require, though. If you're gonna use a lookup table (fuel map) you'll need a fair bit of ROM. Most of the smaller PICs only have 512 bytes or so. You may be better off using a 68HC11, which has lots of stuff built in, like several A/D channels, timers and so on, which are all useful on EFI ECUs. > I would like to update the program via my laptop, so which > chip series might be the best? You'll need something with EEPROM on it. You can get development boards for the 68HC11 with 32kB of static RAM, and 32kB of EEPROM, and you just connect them to your PC to reload the ROM. > What books or software hardware etc etc would I need. All the stuff I used for my computer was commonly available. It helps if you know your micro inside out, so start off with some projects involving the micro you're going to use, then play with them until you fully understand the micro. Otherwise you'll just need to learn all about the sensors and actuators you're going to use on your engine (ie what voltage the sensors give out under different conditions, how to drive the injectors etc) and of course you'll have to figure out an algorithm to determine how much fuel to inject, and spark timing as well (unless you're going to use the old ignition system..) Most of this you can find out as you go (as I did), provided you are cluey and take measurements. With my EFI conversion (from factory EFI to my own EFI) the way I got a basic idea of fuel maps was to hook up a datalogger to the factory EFI computer, and drive around, and log the duty cycle under various conditions. > I know a lot about cars, just not the electronic stuff just yet, but I am willing to learn. Any help would be apreciated. A basic understanding of electronics is essential if you're going to build an ECU. A detailed understanding would be very helpful. Even then you'll be continually learning as you discover new things about the bits you're playing with. It's a long project - be warned.. > And if it matters, I am going to put the EFI on a 1971 Chevelle w/ a 498" > Nitrous breathing rat motor for Drag Racing only, and maybe put the EFI > on my TR7 when I drop the 5.2l rover v8 into it...Thanks!! A TR7 with an EFI 5.2L V8 should go allright... Good luck Andy W :-D From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 17 21:50:36 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:50:36 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 21:50:36 -0500 From: Simon Quested Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #25 > The knock is caused by a lack of exhaust flow back to > the intake which cools the fresh charge. How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? Either way I'd be very surprised if lack of ERG had anything to do with increased detonation. > Oh that makes sense > Grumpy > Not Positive as ever eh Grumpy =-) From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 00:58:46 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:58:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 00:58:46 -0500 From: janet jensen MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Size of (rpm,load) tables Thanks. Good information. I wasn't sure if a bigger table would be beneficial or not. Great to hear from somebody who has been there.. Thanks Greg >Well, they been running the Buicks since 86 with the intercooler, and making >good HP. The syclones since 91. I'd say that the resolution is good >enough. >Ya, might be nicer, but as far as necessary, that's your call. To me 19 >would be perfect, @ 500rpm steps. > The big isue is running the right MAP so you don't run out of >CALIBRATION. >If ya run 14 PSI of boost run a 2bar MAP. If you run 18 use a 3 bar MAP. >That's how I see things >Grumpy From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 05:31:56 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:31:56 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:31:56 -0500 From: "Lowell Foo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: lambda sensors .85 LA would be 12.5:1 and .89 LA would be 13:1. With a heated lambda sensor I don't think placement matters at all. I tried running 2 Bosch LSM-11 sensors on my Talon, 1 in the stock location just after the turbo and one in the tailpipe. The stock sensor is read by the cars Motec ECU and the tailpipe sensor by a Fueltronics handheld. The readings agreed within 1% on a sensor rated for 1.5% accuracy. Also as far as I know you cannot just read voltage off a lambda sensor because of EGT compensation but I've never tried it. From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 10:41:10 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:41:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:41:10 -0500 From: "Robert W. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: EGR and knock,was DIY_EFI Digest V5 #25 > > The knock is caused by a lack of exhaust flow back to > > the intake which cools the fresh charge. > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake > charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? Actually, the exhaust gases dilute the mixture and make the combustion temperatures lower. To compensate for the reduced speed of combustion, extra timing advance is added by the ecm. If the ecm adds the timing and the egr is not functioning, (this typically occurs at highway cruise speeds) you can get continuous pinging which goes away when you step on the gas. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 13:19:28 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:19:28 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:19:28 -0500 From: "Mendell, Richard" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Vortec 4.3 & 747 Do you mean a 700R4? The 727 is a Mopar tranny and would require an adapter (available from Advance Adapters, if that's really what you need). If you have the 700R4, it's a pretty clean swap. The basic hook up is identical and a donor vehicle should provide all the necessary parts. Remember, even the HO 4.3 Vortec is still TBI, as I recall that most of the '86 installations were as well, and the 700R4 soldiered on with even the HO 4.3 until '93 or '94. If you are dropping in the HO motor though, the tranny will need upgrading to the late 700R4 standards, as the early ones (like '86) were a bit weak. Kits are available to do this. Cheers, Richard P. Mendell '91 GW ("The Yak"...150K...TBI Pending) Long Beach, CA "I never could get the hang of Thursdays." - A. Dent > ---------- > From: clive@problem.org[SMTP:clive@problem.org] > Sent: Sunday, 16 January, 2000 12:39 pm > To: diy_efi@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: Vortec 4.3 & 747 > > > > anyone ever swapped a 4.3 late model ~@00hp Vortec into a 86 Vintage > vehicle with a 727 and 4.3 original > > what cals di you use in the 747 > > Thanks > Clive > From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 14:00:22 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:00:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:00:22 -0500 From: "Mendell, Richard" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: New to the List. Can't help you on the Drag car or computer, but EFi for the Rover 8 is easy. Just remember that from the mid-Eighties on, that all Land Rovers featured a EFI on the Rover/Buick 8. Cheers! Richard P. Mendell '91 GW ("The Yak"...150K...EFI Pending) Long Beach, CA "I never could get the hang of Thursdays." - A. Dent > ---------- > From: William Brennan[SMTP:STDBoy@worldnet.att.net] > Sent: Sunday, 16 January, 2000 2:45 pm > To: DIY_EFI@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu > Subject: New to the List. > > Hello all, > I am new to the list, but like everyone I want to build a EFI for my > car. I have read through the archives and I just have a few questions. > I am also new to the Microcontroller world (Haven't bought anything yet, > just a lot of reading) and the likes, so please bear with me. It seems > that the MicroChips are the easiest to start learning on. Am I correct > on this? I would like to update the program via my laptop, so which > chip series might be the best? What books or software hardware etc etc > would I need. I know a lot about cars, just not the electronic stuff > just yet, but I am willing to learn. Any help would be apreciated. And > if it matters, I am going to put the EFI on a 1971 Chevelle w/ a 498" > Nitrous breathing rat motor for Drag Racing only, and maybe put the EFI > on my TR7 when I drop the 5.2l rover v8 into it...Thanks!! > > Lee > From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 14:57:04 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:57:04 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:57:04 -0500 From: "Scott Croughwell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #27 > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake > charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to cool enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port is cooler than the intake manifold. (Thus, EGR valve only opens when the engine is at "operating temperature".) But if engine knock is only apparent at something other than high engine loads and/or speeds... I'd be willing to bet dimes to dollars it's due to the EGR being disconnected or inoperable. Scott From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 15:44:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:44:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:44:53 -0500 From: "Gareth Jones" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Lamda sensor mounting > Hi, > > I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a > 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a > Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the > mixture. > > Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the sensor? Close to > the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust > manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the > cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur > to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. > > I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) > makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? > > In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement > petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded > petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than > Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. > > Thanks, > > Ade > > Hi Ade, I had a mini catalogue a while ago which listed an LCB Y peice with a boss for mounting a lambda sensor. Unfortunately I can't find the catalogue anymore, but I would suggest you try the usual big suppliers MiniSpares, MiniSport, MiniSpeed, etc. I bet you non mini owners just can't believe the cunning originality in these names ;-) Or maybe even try going directly to somebody like Maniflow. Either way it would be cheaper than wrecking a whole LCB. Gareth Jones From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 16:19:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:19:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:19:13 -0500 From: "Rich M" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: Lambda sensor mounting Ade, I've no experience with minis but I have done the same as you propose with a 2.0 pinto engined Escort and 1.8i Vauxhall Cavalier. I mounted in both cases at the end of the manifold/downpipe (below floor level, using a heated Bosch 4-wire sensor. With the heater powered, the sensor operates right down to idle, with the heater off, the sensor doesn't stay hot enough at idle but is fine under driving conditions. The sensor I used was ex. Rover, and is the same one used throughout the range of 'K' series engines and 'T'/'M' series. (ie, 200's, 400's, 600T, 800 4-cyl.). Vauxhall use a very similar sensor on Motronic (Bosch multipoint) systems; TBi (Multec) applications use a single wire unheated Rochester sensor which needs to be close to the engine to work properly. Hope this helps. Rich. > Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:47:33 +0000 > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > Subject: Lamda sensor mounting > > Hi, > > I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a > 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a > Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the > mixture. > > Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the > sensor? Close to > the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust > manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the > cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur > to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. > > I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) > makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? > > In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement > petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded > petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than > Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. > > Thanks, > > Ade From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 16:45:24 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:45:24 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:45:24 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #27 Bring cash. Grumpy | > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this | > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake | > charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? | | Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to | cool enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port | is cooler than the intake manifold. (Thus, EGR valve only opens when the | engine is at "operating temperature".) But if engine knock is only apparent | at something other than high engine loads and/or speeds... I'd be willing to | bet dimes to dollars it's due to the EGR being disconnected or inoperable. | | Scott | From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 19:31:46 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:31:46 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:31:46 -0500 From: "Tom Parker" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Leaded EGO sensor I just been discussing EGO sensors with Boris Shapiro . He works for Bosch in Israel and he has this to say about EGO sensors not liking the leaded fuel: >Correct. But... >Bosch lambda sensor catalog number 0258003083 will do. It's been developed >for early Fiat Uno Turbo that ran on leaded fuel. It's got different >construction to other units. You can use it without a worry. -- Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 18 19:41:34 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:41:34 -0500 Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:41:34 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Leaded EGO sensor O2 sensors and unleaded vary by manufacturer, If you go thru the archives you'll see several instances of folks going for years overseas with their stock gm sensors. On the GN list they have problems killing O2 sensors on unleaded, but the AC/Delco last the longest. I'm sure the 1400+dF EGTs help to kill em as fast as possible. The hole in most stories is that they ignore the fact that many countries still use leaded, and are using O2 sensors. Grumpy | I just been discussing EGO sensors with Boris Shapiro . | He works for Bosch in Israel and he has this to say about EGO sensors not | liking the leaded fuel: | | >Correct. But... | >Bosch lambda sensor catalog number 0258003083 will do. It's been developed | >for early Fiat Uno Turbo that ran on leaded fuel. It's got different | >construction to other units. You can use it without a worry. | | -- | Tom Parker - parkert@ihug.co.nz | - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ | From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 03:32:03 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:32:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 03:32:03 -0500 From: "Espen Hilde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: lamda sensors Hi all! To be able to read a car stoiciometry or not , without all the fuss of mounting the lamda sensor I have made myself a 3" 0,30m tube with a set screw in the end to slip over the end of the tailpipe.In the middle there is a welded bung for the sensor .The end of the tube I have bent almost flat ,1cm gap.With a heated sensor it works good , but I have not tested it against front tube mounting. Espen From: "Lowell Foo" > Subject: lambda sensors > > .85 LA would be 12.5:1 and .89 LA would be 13:1. With a heated > lambda sensor I don't think placement matters at all. I tried running > 2 Bosch LSM-11 sensors on my Talon, 1 in the stock location just > after the turbo and one in the tailpipe. The stock sensor is read by > the cars Motec ECU and the tailpipe sensor by a Fueltronics > handheld. The readings agreed within 1% on a sensor rated for > 1.5% accuracy. Also as far as I know you cannot just read voltage > off a lambda sensor because of EGT compensation but I've never > tried it. From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 14:46:23 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:46:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:46:23 -0500 From: "Torstein Moshuus" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 ----- Original Message ----- From: DIY_EFI Digest To: Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 11:00 AM Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 > > DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, January 19 2000 Volume 05 : Number 029 > > > > In this issue: > > Re: Lamda sensor mounting > RE: Lambda sensor mounting > Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #27 > Leaded EGO sensor > Re: Leaded EGO sensor > Re: lamda sensors > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:00:39 -0000 > From: "Gareth Jones" > Subject: Re: Lamda sensor mounting > > > Hi, > > > > I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a > > 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a > > Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the > > mixture. > > > > Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the sensor? Close > to > > the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust > > manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the > > cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur > > to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. > > > > I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) > > makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? > > > > In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement > > petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded > > petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than > > Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ade > > > > > > Hi Ade, > > I had a mini catalogue a while ago which listed an LCB Y peice with a boss > for mounting a lambda sensor. Unfortunately I can't find the catalogue > anymore, but I would suggest you try the usual big suppliers MiniSpares, > MiniSport, MiniSpeed, etc. I bet you non mini owners just can't believe the > cunning originality in these names ;-) Or maybe even try going directly to > somebody like Maniflow. Either way it would be cheaper than wrecking a whole > LCB. > > Gareth Jones > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:18:58 -0000 > From: "Rich M" > Subject: RE: Lambda sensor mounting > > Ade, > I've no experience with minis but I have done the same as you propose with a > 2.0 pinto engined Escort and 1.8i Vauxhall Cavalier. I mounted in both cases > at the end of the manifold/downpipe (below floor level, using a heated Bosch > 4-wire sensor. With the heater powered, the sensor operates right down to > idle, with the heater off, the sensor doesn't stay hot enough at idle but is > fine under driving conditions. The sensor I used was ex. Rover, and is the > same one used throughout the range of 'K' series engines and 'T'/'M' series. > (ie, 200's, 400's, 600T, 800 4-cyl.). Vauxhall use a very similar sensor on > Motronic (Bosch multipoint) systems; TBi (Multec) applications use a single > wire unheated Rochester sensor which needs to be close to the engine to work > properly. > Hope this helps. > > Rich. > > > Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 14:47:33 +0000 > > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > > Subject: Lamda sensor mounting > > > > Hi, > > > > I am running a Mini with a highly tuned A series engine (100bhp from a > > 1.3litre). It has a carb and Distributer but I am thinking about adding a > > Lamda sensor with a dash mounted gauge so that I can Keep an eye on the > > mixture. > > > > Where in the exhaust system is the best place to mount the > > sensor? Close to > > the head? 6ft down the exhaust? I have a Long center branch exhaust > > manifold which doesn't bring the ports together for about 3ft after the > > cylinder head. The manifold is also new (and expensive) so I would prefur > > to mount is in the exhaust if it doesn't affect the reading. > > > > I plan to get a sensor from a car in a scrap yard are there any UK (comon) > > makes of cars that have better Lamda sensor than others? > > > > In the UK they recently banned Leaded petrol. They made Lead replacement > > petrol available to 'replace' it. Does LRP clog lamba sensors like Leaded > > petrol does? I can run Unleaded but LRP has Higher Octane rating than > > Unleaded and is cheaper than Super Unleaded. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ade > From: Torstein Moshuus 19.Feb.00 tmoshuus@start.no Re: Location of lambda sensor The sensor should be as close to the the exhaust outlet as possible. In case of Al´s Mini I would suspect that he should locate the adaptor as close to the end of the manifold as possible. The sensor does not give reliable readings unless heated to approx. 600 degrees (F). A heated sensor would be less dependent on temperature (of course). Incidentally what kind of instrument are you using in order to measure the very low voltages we are dealing with here ( less than 1 volt and a pretty high impedance looking into the sensor) ? rgrds > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 > **************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 17:47:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:47:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:47:32 -0500 From: Simon Quested Subject: Knock > From: "Robert W. Hughes" > Actually, the exhaust gases dilute the mixture and make the combustion > temperatures lower. How do you add hot and get cold? I'm confused.... > From: "Scott Croughwell" > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake charge > > and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? > > Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to cool > enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port is cooler > than the intake manifold. Wow so the exhaust gas is cooler than the intake I never would have thought so.... hell I'm not even running emmissions gear, don't have to here in NZ. It is even legal to remove cats.... From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:01:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:01:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:01:13 -0500 From: Orin Eman MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ADMIN] Lists are moving! Hopefully, the move will start tomorrow, 5pm EST. There will almost certainly be a disruption/delay in service around that time, so please refrain from posting tomorrow (Jan 20th) afternoon until further notice. Orin. From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:03:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:03:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:03:12 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Lists are moving! DTs are already setting in <>... Grumpy | Hopefully, the move will start tomorrow, 5pm EST. | There will almost certainly be a disruption/delay | in service around that time, so please refrain from | posting tomorrow (Jan 20th) afternoon until further notice. | | Orin. | From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:14:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:14:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:14:32 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Minimum to run GMECM? For a basic DIS MAP application what are the minimum inputs that a GMECM is going to need to run? 1)Obviously power,ground, ignition 2)the connections to the DIS which I believe will supply RPM via the crank sensor, other misc power and ground connections. 3) MAP 4) Injector connections 5) TPS? I assume the unit would at least idle without this hooked up? 6) temp? same thing? 7) VSS ? can this be fooled or bypassed since I have no sensor in this application 8) knock? I assmume not required just to make it idle 9) others required? Basically, I am trying to figure out what is the minimum to crank and run angine with a 1227165, 748,749 or 730 and DIS. Since I won't have a complete GM vehicle to tinker with, I will get as much as I can from some donor vehicle. Thanks! Jim From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:20:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:20:53 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:20:53 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Need an ECM Anyone out there have a 1227165, 748,749 or 730 that you want to sell? >From a 4cyl DIS app would be best, but not required. It could be dead (as a core) or fully functional. If you have 4cyl DIS stuff to go along with it I could buy that as well. Thanks very much, Jim From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:25:05 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:25:05 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:25:05 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Minimum to run GMECM? Lets see, from the nature of this question, I'd almost quess that you have a limited amount of efi experience. So you with this limited background want to jump in and redesign what gm has spent millions of dollars on, and install it some other way. OK.. 2nd, leaving all/most/some of the sensors disconnected negates any benefits to running efi, might as install a carb.. Least you might have something that is proper to drive. The archives here and at GMECM have lots of leads on how to do things. Grumpy | For a basic DIS MAP application what are the minimum inputs | that a GMECM is going to need to run? | 1)Obviously power,ground, ignition | 2)the connections to the DIS which I believe will supply RPM | via the crank sensor, other misc power and ground connections. | 3) MAP | 4) Injector connections | 5) TPS? I assume the unit would at least idle without this hooked up? | 6) temp? same thing? | 7) VSS ? can this be fooled or bypassed since I have no sensor in this | application | 8) knock? I assmume not required just to make it idle | 9) others required? | Basically, I am trying to figure out what is the minimum to crank and | run angine with a 1227165, 748,749 or 730 and DIS. Since I won't have a | complete GM vehicle to tinker with, I will get as much as I can from some donor vehicle. | Thanks! | Jim | From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 19:38:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:38:30 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:38:30 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: Minimum to run GMECM I just found Bruces Test bench article. It answered many of the questions. Any other words of wisdom would be appreciated! Jim From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 19 23:36:03 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:36:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 23:36:03 -0500 From: "Steve" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #28 > > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:57:04 -0800 > From: "Scott Croughwell" > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #27 > > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake > > charge and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? > > Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to > cool enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port > is cooler than the intake manifold. (Thus, EGR valve only opens when the > engine is at "operating temperature".) But if engine knock is only apparent > at something other than high engine loads and/or speeds... I'd be willing to > bet dimes to dollars it's due to the EGR being disconnected or inoperable. Well, I have put a thermocouple in the intake manifold and can state the results of what I found. With the EGR not operating and using a cold air intake I was seeing around 125F after the throttle body on a turbocharged and intercooled V6 at light cruise conditions. With EGR operational, as soon as the valve opened under the same conditions the intake manifold temp jumped to 210F on a 75F day. I think that it is less a temperature issue than a charge dilution issue. But with some fine tuning of the spark map, you can easily eliminate any detonation you may experience. YMMV Steve From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 08:54:01 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:54:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:54:01 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? Bruce wrote: >So you with this limited >background want to jump in and redesign what gm has spent millions of >dollars on.. Not at all. The point is NOT to design a ground up system! In fact you are whom suggested I check into the GM's for a BASIC FI conversion application. >2nd, leaving all/most/some of the sensors disconnected negates any >benefits to running efi, might as install a carb.. You misunderstood the purpose of the question. I plan on running several sensors (except VSS)for the reason you mentioned, but I would like to start with just the ignition, map,temp and TPS if that would work. So, other than setting service codes, will the ECM run like this, or will it likely go into a limp home mode of some type? Jim Dopey From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 10:00:17 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:00:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:00:17 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? You want to run the system, in your own configuration, for what ever reason. Your not going to like it when your done. Look in the archives, for the dozen of so threads about deleting the VSS. The other inputs are all necessary, also. It is far easier to plan things out once, install it all, and then fine tune something then cob bit by bit together. I'm just trying to save you time/money, I been thru this dozens of times, on+off list. You want to ignore this, fine, least I tried Grumpy | You misunderstood the purpose of the question. I plan on running | several sensors (except VSS)for the reason you mentioned, but I would like to start with just the ignition, map,temp and TPS if that would work. | So, other than setting service codes, will the ECM run like this, | or will it likely go into a limp home mode of some type? | Jim | Dopey From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 10:14:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:14:32 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:14:32 -0500 From: "Robert W. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Knock > > Actually, the exhaust gases dilute the mixture and make the combustion > > temperatures lower. > > How do you add hot and get cold? > I'm confused.... > > > From: "Scott Croughwell" > > > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... Or have I got this > > > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't heating the cool intake charge > > > and the cold intake charge is causing the detonation???? > > > > Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the EGR have had enough time to cool > > enough so that the portion of exhaust temp re-entering the intake port is cooler > > than the intake manifold. and from another note > With EGR operational, as > soon as the valve opened under the same conditions the intake manifold temp > jumped to 210F on a 75F day. I think that it is less a temperature issue > than a charge dilution issue. But with some fine tuning of the spark map, > you can easily eliminate any detonation you may experience. This is what I was saying. The exhaust gases dilute the mixture and and result in cooler combustion chamber temperatures which reduces nitrogen oxide formation. The mixture also burns slower and so requires more ignition advance. The exhaust gases are not cooler than the intake, on my car they are hot enough to melt and burn out 60-40 solder in copper piping. > > Wow so the exhaust gas is cooler than the intake I never would have thought > so.... hell I'm not even running emmissions gear, don't have to here in NZ. It > is even legal to remove cats.... How about dogs? sorry -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 14:49:28 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:49:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:49:28 -0500 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 >Hi Ade, > >I had a mini catalogue a while ago which listed an LCB Y peice with a boss >for mounting a lambda sensor. Unfortunately I can't find the catalogue >anymore, but I would suggest you try the usual big suppliers MiniSpares, >MiniSport, MiniSpeed, etc. I bet you non mini owners just can't believe the >cunning originality in these names ;-) Or maybe even try going directly to >somebody like Maniflow. Either way it would be cheaper than wrecking a whole >LCB. > >Gareth Jones I have just bought a nice maniflow LCB... I am not going to buy another other one! Ade From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 16:50:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:50:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 16:50:13 -0500 From: cwagner@info2000.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 7730v2 ecu file If anyone is interested, I uploaded a new ecu file to incoming. The ecu file is for use with the 8D code (90-92 Corvett and Camaro). Let me know how it works. It is specifically taylored for use with Winbin and Promedit 6. From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:11:14 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:11:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:11:14 -0500 From: "jtyler" Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:07:27 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? >You want to run the system, in your own configuration, for what ever >reason. Your not going to like it when your done. >Look in the archives, for the dozen of so threads about deleting the >VSS. The other inputs are all necessary, also. VSS controls (at least) : Idle air Control Valve. Manual Trans/manual clutch. I only need one Idle speed after warm up. Canister Purge. Emissions are a non issue for this app. Torque Converter. Manual trans.... Cruise. don't care it doesn't have one Trans shift solenoids. manual trans.... Electric cooling fans. A simple temp controlled fan is fine. The ECM doesn't need to do this. Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... sorry I bothered you with it. Jim From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:16:48 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:16:48 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:16:48 -0800 From: Simon Quested Subject: Knock > This is what I was saying. The exhaust gases dilute the mixture and and > result in cooler combustion chamber temperatures Ok.... so the inlet manifold temp goes up but the mixture is diluted by the exhaust gas from the erg. I would have thought that this would have leaned the AFR if anything causing detonation or isn't there enough O2 left in the exhaust? >> hell I'm not even running emmissions gear, don't have to here in NZ. It > > is even legal to remove cats.... > How about dogs? sorry So you should be =-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:20:01 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:20:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:20:01 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? THESE ARE ALL OUTPUTS!!!!. If you want to get/or seemingly pissy, fine, I'll withdraw my efforts to answer your questions. Grumpy | Canister Purge. Emissions are a non issue for this app. | Torque Converter. Manual trans.... | Cruise. don't care it doesn't have one | Trans shift solenoids. manual trans.... | Electric cooling fans. A simple temp controlled fan is fine. The ECM | doesn't need to do this. | Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... | sorry I bothered you with it. | Jim From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:22:31 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:22:31 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:22:31 -0800 From: Orin MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ADMIN] The Move This lists are currently running off the new server. You might have noticed your filters not working anymore. You will have to change references to esl.eng.ohio-state.edu or efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu to diy-efi.org in your filters, aliases and address books. The new address for subscribe/unsubscribe requests is: majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org We even have an annoying reminder at the bottom of each message at the moment :). If you are on diy_efi-digest, please refrain from switching to diy_efi for a day or two while we make sure everything is running smoothly. Thanks, Your list admins. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 17:58:52 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:58:52 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:58:52 -0800 From: Phil Lamovie MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Believe it or not... NOT How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... is a good question. Unfortunately it's not the right one. How does the introduction of exhaust gas lower the temperature of combustion is a better one. Keep in mind that the engine is a sequence of discrete events. The combustion temp is lower beacause there is less fuel burned and this is achieved by first using exhaust re-entry to help raise the compression. As the exhaust is 70% nitrogen and nearly 30% CO2 it is very nearly inert gas. Adding this gas without any change in throttle position increases the relative compression ratio. The raised compression allows the engine mapper to lower the amount of fuel i.e. increase the A/F ratio to a greater number prior to the onset of unstable combustion. The Exhaust gas is NOT suddenly cooled. your in the pursuit... phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 18:36:42 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:36:42 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:36:42 -0800 From: "jtyler" Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? No I wasn't getting pissy. Thank you for all your help already. I really meant it just seems for the relatively simple app I described, trying to disable/fool/recode 80% of the ECM provisions may not be the way to go. SDS or similar may be smarter if it is going to take 2 years to figure out how too undo all that GM spent millions doing. With all the provisions in the GM code (and I realize why they have to do that stuff), it seems like trying to use a sledgehammer to drive a nail. All the complexity GM had to do for a production vehicle simply isn't neccesary for my application. I was trying to find more info on the 168/808 applications you mentioned. I haven't found if any of those where DIS. I could use a speedo cable VSS if the ECM is going to get dumb without it. So: VSS,MAP,Temp,TPS,Ignition maybe that would be enough. I looked at the 165 app on TC, it was a MAF. The 227 app there had a 4 cyl switch and was MAP, but was auto, so I'll look for the manual version. >Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... >sorry I bothered you with it. >Jim ------------------------------ >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:27:08 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? THESE ARE ALL OUTPUTS!!!!. If you want to get/or seemingly pissy, fine, I'll withdraw my efforts to answer your questions. Grumpy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 20:38:17 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:38:17 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:38:17 -0800 From: "Mike Pitts" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? In a generic sense, I would think the following are minimum. +12V and Ground...duh ;-) MAP or MAF depending on ECU type TPS Coolant Temp Air Temp Tach signal O2 sensor <- don't skimp on this! Maybe a cam sensor Some controls (like EGR) have circuitry in them which is used by the ECU to detect their existance and proper operation. Without some of these controls, you would probably get several error codes, which may put the ECU in a limp or semi-limp mode. I would definately hook up the SES lamp and have a tool like Diacom available. For the VSS, if the ECU thinks the trans is in gear and sees an RPM of say >3000 for example, it may flag a VSS error code. VSS affects the engine control in some models more than others. If you could just get any kind of decent pulse to the ECU when the vehicle is moving, that would probably be enough for it to determine coasting vs stopped. If it were me, I'd grab everything I could off the donor car, especially the harness. And try to put it all into use, except for the cannister purge and EGR (yeck!). JMO Good luck, -Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 20 20:48:05 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:48:05 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:48:05 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Believe it or not... NOT This doesn't make sense to me. Static CR would remain the same. The dynamic/effective CR should still be the same since nothing none compressable was added to the mix. The VE should drop (less O2 to react), hence lower fuel amount needed, leaner mixture takes longer to burn hence more timing needed. Grumpy | As the exhaust is 70% nitrogen and nearly 30% CO2 it is very nearly | inert gas. Adding this gas without any change in throttle position | increases the relative compression ratio. | The raised compression allows the engine mapper to | lower the amount of fuel i.e. increase the A/F ratio to a greater | number prior to the onset of unstable combustion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 02:09:33 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 02:09:33 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 02:09:33 -0800 From: "Gregory A. Parmer" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: re: Minimum to run GMECM? > I only need one Idle speed after warm up. Try it without VSS. I did. You'll find that you need a VSS signal for the IAC to reset and give the a proper idle speed. I s'pose you could plug the IAC port totally, but it sure is nice to have fast idle while cold, etc. -greg (maybe I'll just add that to my .sig file...) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 05:40:16 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:40:16 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:40:16 -0800 From: Roy MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #32 >From Roy Spectrics Ltd The sole purpose of EGR is to reduce exhaust emisions, it has a detrimental effect on both engine efficiency and power output. To reduce the heating effect EGR has on the incomming air in the inlet manifold, EGR coolers are being introduced, so basic EGR does not reduce the incomming air temperature !. What it does do is to reduce the rate at which the flame front travels through the mixture during combustion. Hope this helps Roy --- DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > > DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, January 20 2000 > Volume 05 : Number 032 > > > > In this issue: > > re:Minimum to run GMECM? > Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > Re: Knock > Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 > > See the end of the digest for information on > subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 08:53:19 -0500 > From: "jtyler" > Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > > Bruce wrote: > > >So you with this limited > >background want to jump in and redesign what gm has > spent millions of >dollars on.. > > Not at all. The point is NOT to design a ground up > system! > In fact you are whom suggested I check into the GM's > for a BASIC > FI conversion application. > > >2nd, leaving all/most/some of the sensors > disconnected negates any > >benefits to running efi, might as install a carb.. > > > You misunderstood the purpose of the question. I > plan on running > several sensors (except VSS)for the reason you > mentioned, but I would like to start with just the > ignition, map,temp and TPS if that would work. > > So, other than setting service codes, will the ECM > run like this, > or will it likely go into a limp home mode of some > type? > > Jim > Dopey > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:07:27 -0500 > From: "Bruce Plecan" > Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > > You want to run the system, in your own > configuration, for what ever reason. > Your not going to like it when your done. > Look in the archives, for the dozen of so threads > about deleting the VSS. > The other inputs are all necessary, also. > It is far easier to plan things out once, install it > all, and then fine tune > something then cob bit by bit together. > I'm just trying to save you time/money, I been thru > this dozens of times, > on+off list. > You want to ignore this, fine, least I tried > Grumpy > > | You misunderstood the purpose of the question. I > plan on running > | several sensors (except VSS)for the reason you > mentioned, but I would like > to start with just the ignition, map,temp and TPS if > that would work. > | So, other than setting service codes, will the ECM > run like this, > | or will it likely go into a limp home mode of some > type? > | Jim > | Dopey > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:13:51 -0600 > From: "Robert W. Hughes" > Subject: Re: Knock > > > > Actually, the exhaust gases dilute the mixture > and make the combustion > > > temperatures lower. > > > > How do you add hot and get cold? > > I'm confused.... > > > > > From: "Scott Croughwell" > > > > > > How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh > charge.... Or have I got this > > > > wrong and you mean that the exhaust gas isn't > heating the cool intake charge > > > > and the cold intake charge is causing the > detonation???? > > > > > > Believe it or not... the gasses coming from the > EGR have had enough time to cool > > > enough so that the portion of exhaust temp > re-entering the intake port is cooler > > > than the intake manifold. > > and from another note > > > With EGR operational, as > > soon as the valve opened under the same conditions > the intake manifold temp > > jumped to 210F on a 75F day. I think that it is > less a temperature issue > > than a charge dilution issue. But with some fine > tuning of the spark map, > > you can easily eliminate any detonation you may > experience. > > This is what I was saying. The exhaust gases dilute > the mixture and and > result in cooler combustion chamber temperatures > which reduces nitrogen > oxide formation. The mixture also burns slower and > so requires more > ignition advance. The exhaust gases are not cooler > than the intake, on > my car they are hot enough to melt and burn out > 60-40 solder in copper > piping. > > > > > Wow so the exhaust gas is cooler than the intake I > never would have thought > > so.... hell I'm not even running emmissions gear, > don't have to here in NZ. It > > is even legal to remove cats.... > How about dogs? sorry > - -- > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > BackYard Engineering > 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W > Houston, Texas > rwhughe@ev1.net > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:15:30 +0000 > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #29 > > >Hi Ade, > > > >I had a mini catalogue a while ago which listed an > LCB Y peice with a boss > >for mounting a lambda sensor. Unfortunately I can't > find the catalogue > >anymore, but I would suggest you try the usual big > suppliers MiniSpares, > >MiniSport, MiniSpeed, etc. I bet you non mini > owners just can't believe the > >cunning originality in these names ;-) Or maybe > even try going directly to > >somebody like Maniflow. Either way it would be > cheaper than wrecking a whole > >LCB. > > > >Gareth Jones > > I have just bought a nice maniflow LCB... I am not > going to buy another > other one! > > Ade > > ------------------------------ > > End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #32 > **************************** > > To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > > in the body of a message to > "Majordomo@efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu". > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is > also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" > in the command > above with "diy_efi". > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 05:49:09 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:49:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:49:09 -0800 From: steve ravet MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [ADMIN] The Move A big round of applause for Orin and John on this apparently seamless transition. You may have noticed that the WWW pages are on the new server, www.diy-efi.org. There are lots of broken links right now, I'm getting them fixed as I can. Should look lots better after this weekend. --steve Orin wrote: > > This lists are currently running off the new server. > > You might have noticed your filters not working anymore. > You will have to change references to esl.eng.ohio-state.edu > or efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu to diy-efi.org in your filters, aliases > and address books. > > The new address for subscribe/unsubscribe requests is: > > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > We even have an annoying reminder at the bottom of each message > at the moment :). > > If you are on diy_efi-digest, please refrain from switching > to diy_efi for a day or two while we make sure everything > is running smoothly. > > Thanks, > > Your list admins. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from efi332, send "unsubscribe efi332" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 06:23:21 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:23:21 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 06:23:21 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #32 No, cause, it's nonsense (the ** part).. EGR reducing the IAT, look at the bottom of an intake with working egr (SBC), note all the coke deposited where the egr runner is. It takes temps of like 350+dF to do that. If your IAT is over 350dF, I hope it's due to alot of boost, other wise ya got problems. Grumpy Please note, this was edited to a resonable lenght. | >From Roy Spectrics Ltd | The sole purpose of EGR is to reduce exhaust emisions, | it has a detrimental effect on both engine efficiency | and power output. | To reduce the heating effect EGR has on the incomming | air in the inlet manifold, EGR coolers are being | introduced, ***so basic EGR does not reduce the incomming | air temperature !***. What it does do is to reduce the | rate at which the flame front travels through the | mixture during combustion. Hope this helps Roy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 07:24:11 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:24:11 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:24:11 -0800 From: A70Duster@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: EGR stuff << Ok.... so the inlet manifold temp goes up but the mixture is diluted by the exhaust gas from the erg. I would have thought that this would have leaned the AFR if anything causing detonation or isn't there enough O2 left in the exhaust? >> Leaning the mixture (via the EGR) would mean adding more O2, but the EGR does not do this. It adds N2, C02 and H20 (vapor) to the airstream of N2 and O2 and HxCx. The correct A/F ratio has been determined (carb or ECU), the EGR just "thins" the mixture. I left the small amout of Argon out as not to confuse the issue. Hope this helps... Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 10:22:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:22:30 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:22:30 -0800 From: Hunt David MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #34 >Ok.... so the inlet manifold temp goes up but the mixture is diluted by the >exhaust gas from the erg. I would have thought that this would have leaned >the AFR if anything causing detonation or isn't there enough O2 left in the >exhaust? Having worked with oxygen sensors in other applications, it is the excess oxygen that is measured, so lean is less oxygen not excess fuel. The exhaust is just an inert that has little to do with the combustion process except that it has to be heated by the oxidation process. The result is less fuel, less oxygen and cooler PEAK temperatures, thus improved emissions. I believe, but ain't sure, that the exhaust temperature is reduced with an increase in the engine's efficiency. The free oxygen remaining (and sensed) is relatively unchanged. Now I have a question, when a piston is burned, is the excess oxygen reacting with the Aluminum? Or is it something else? >How does the hot exhaust gas cool the fresh charge.... is a good >question. Unfortunately it's not the right one. >If you want to get/or seemingly pissy, fine, I'll withdraw my efforts to >answer your questions. > Grumpy Grumpy, I find your answers quite enlightening and enjoyable, but you too can come off as pissy. Don't take this to heart, but in this format anyone can be misunderstood. Review your first response. In my opinion, we should be expecially accomodating and understanding in a forum such as this. Or are you just upholding your good name, Grumpy. Don't get upset, we all love you. >This doesn't make sense to me. Static CR would remain the same. >The dynamic/effective CR should still be the same since nothing none >compressable was added to the mix. The VE should drop (less O2 to react), >hence lower fuel amount needed, leaner mixture takes longer to burn hence >more timing needed. >Grumpy Since the spend gas is added after the throttle plate the total gas in the combustion chamber is increased as compared to no recirculation. Thus the "dynamic" pressure (effective compression ratio) is increased. At part throttle the chamber certainly doesn't fill due to the restriction of the throttle and the dynamic compression ratio is quite small, so even a small amount of recirculated gas increases the dynamic compression ratio. It also increases the preignition temperature (promoting better vaporization (mixing)), and provides a (relatively) cooling effect for pockets of "leanness" reducing the possiblity of detonation. REDUCING. That "leanness" might be caused by fuel dropout which means that the oxygen rich, low fuel (lean) areas will also have a lot of recirculation gasses. Win - Win - Win - Win situation, quite ingenous actually. Bama ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 13:49:50 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:49:50 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:49:50 -0800 From: Todd Israels Subject: Re: Digest V5 #34 Min GM ECM >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:35:48 -0500 >From: "jtyler" >Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > >No I wasn't getting pissy. Thank you for all your help already. > >I really meant it just seems for the relatively simple >app I described, trying to disable/fool/recode 80% of the ECM >provisions may not be the way to go. SDS or similar may be smarter >if it is going to take 2 years to figure out how too undo all that >GM spent millions doing. > >With all the provisions in the GM code (and I realize why they have to do that stuff), it seems like trying to use a sledgehammer to drive a nail. All the complexity GM had to do for a production vehicle simply isn't neccesary for my application. > >I was trying to find more info on the 168/808 applications you >mentioned. I haven't found if any of those where DIS. > >I could use a speedo cable VSS if the ECM is going to get dumb without it. > >So: > >VSS,MAP,Temp,TPS,Ignition maybe that would be enough. > >I looked at the 165 app on TC, it was a MAF. The 227 app there >had a 4 cyl switch and was MAP, but was auto, so I'll look for the manual version. > > >>Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... >>sorry I bothered you with it. > >>Jim > >- ------------------------------ > All that GM complexity could come in handy. I dont recall your aplication but it is my recolection that as sensors error it dissabels that part of the code and runs on a simpler map not affected by the erroring sensor. You dont have to hook all the sensors up but they are there fro a reason. I got a 4cl Fiero to start and run with RPM Vss(needed for start but will keep running if unpluged) and MAP. This was on a scraped car with the clutch out so driveability was not checked. Hopefully someone can help with the details I know are missing, have just started looking at the code in GM ECMs Good Luck Todd Israels ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 14:24:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:24:30 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:24:30 -0800 From: Jim Fitzgerald Subject: Knock S., VE, CR I found some more Knock S. Info in "Automotive Elect Handbook" by Ronald K. Jurgen (McGraw Hill). Author says that knock frequency ranges from 2 to 15 kHz and is given by: "Drapers Equation" Fr = Pmn(C)/pi(B) Pmn = vibration mode constant C = velocity of sound in Cyl. gas B = radius of cylinder He gives an example, that with gas temp of 2000K, velocity C = 900 m/s, and for a 100 mm Dia cylinder the 1st knock harmonic would be 5.75 kHz. So looking at the equation you can see that freq. is proportional to cylinder dia. Using the same constants and Fr = .0575 B you can estimate other size cylinders. He also says that any cyl knock travels through the engine block to the sensor in less than 1 ms. And that the successive cylinders are consecutive in time and are not overlapped. At 6000 RPM they would be 2.5 ms apart. He says Manuf. originally tried to tune the sensor to a particular freq. and that they had a Q factor of about 2. He thinks that they now use a filter in the ECM. This was all referenced to SAE papers 920702, 920808, and 910858 Actually I think that most common KS are similar and if someone wanted to tune the KS response for a particular app, that a simple RLC band pass filter would be sufficient. On another note, I think that an engines compression ratio, both static and effective, and the VE are strictly determined by the mechanical design of the engine. It would be the same if the engine were driven as an air compressor. Its the cylinder pressure curve that changes depending on the characteristics of the intake charge gas mixture, Temp, Ing. Timming and all the other combustion variables. Its also commonly known that lean mixtures can lead to burt pistons and valves. Is that because the excess O2 is burning the metal (cutting torch) while the overall combustion temp. is cooler?? Jim F. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 18:06:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:06:53 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:06:53 -0800 From: "Clare Snyder" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: believe iot or not > > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:55:06 -0500 > From: "Bruce Plecan" > Subject: Re: Believe it or not... NOT > > This doesn't make sense to me. Static CR would remain the same. > The dynamic/effective CR should still be the same since nothing none > compressable was added to the mix. The VE should drop (less O2 to react), > hence lower fuel amount needed, leaner mixture takes longer to burn hence > more timing needed. > Grumpy > He's got it down pretty close. Addition of an inert gas allows more complete filling of the cyl with less fuel, yet no leaning of the mixture. Lets say for argument's sake a full charge is one litre. At low load, partial throttle, VE may be throttle limitted to 20or 30%. The A/F mixture is 14:1. CR is 8:1. With a 30% VE effective CR is reduced somewhat - possibly as low as about 3:1. Now, lets add 200cc of inert gas to the cyl. We now have an effective VE of 40 or 50%, raising the effective compression ratio at the same throttle opening, with the same A/F ratio, to closer to 5:1. We get the same power out of the burning fuel - likely even a bit more due to more squeeze. We also expand the inert gas charge due to heating, and a portion of the heat that would normally go out the pipe is absorbed here. This absorption of cyl heat by the inert charge also reduces the cyl temperature to a point where less nitrogen is oxidized, thus reducing NOX emissions. A Miller Cycle engine takes this to extremes, with the engine running for all practicle purposes at close to 100% VE for the majority of it's operating regimen. > > | As the exhaust is 70% nitrogen and nearly 30% CO2 it is very nearly > | inert gas. Adding this gas without any change in throttle position > | increases the relative compression ratio. > | The raised compression allows the engine mapper to > | lower the amount of fuel i.e. increase the A/F ratio to a greater > | number prior to the onset of unstable combustion. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 18:49:07 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:49:07 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 18:49:07 -0800 From: steve ravet MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: ftp site All -- The OLD FTP site is no longer accepting uploads. The new one is, or at least it should be. Make sure that all new uploads go to the new ftp site. The layout is the same, only the address has changed. It's now: ftp.diy-efi.org or ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org --steve -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 21 21:23:18 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:23:18 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:23:18 -0800 From: Orin MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [ADMIN] Non-digest Go ahead and switch if you are desperate :) You'll have to go through the authorization process to get on diy_efi, so don't unsubscribe from the digest until you get the welcome message. Orin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 03:09:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:09:30 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:09:30 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: believe iot or not | Addition of an inert gas allows more complete filling of the cyl with less | fuel, yet no leaning of the mixture. Lets say for argument's sake a full | charge is one litre. At low load, partial throttle, VE may be throttle | limitted to 20or 30%. The A/F mixture is 14:1. CR is 8:1. | With a 30% VE effective CR is reduced somewhat - possibly as low as about | 3:1. We agree line for line up until the last sentence. Now even with it drop the mention of the CR, and I agree with you. But, I don't see how you can tie CR to VE. The VE is a funstion of tuning, not calculation. You can guess at a VE, but it ain't so, till the tuner says "Done".. | Now, lets add 200cc of inert gas to the cyl. | We now have an effective VE of 40 or 50%, raising the effective compression | ratio at the same throttle opening, with the same A/F ratio, to closer to | 5:1. Did you remove a 200cc amount of air?. What you say here, is just the opposite of what I see happening, again ignoring the mention of CR. | We get the same power out of the burning fuel - likely even a bit more due | to more squeeze. We also expand the inert gas charge due to heating, and a | portion of the heat that would normally go out the pipe is absorbed here. | This absorption of cyl heat by the inert charge also reduces the cyl | temperature to a point where less nitrogen is oxidized, thus reducing NOX | emissions. I've always seen an increase in TPS, when adding EGR. While I haven't done alot of adding of EGR, I've never seen a lowering of TPS, or increase in MPG. Yes, what I generally tinker with is cammed alot more then oem, so self egr'ing is alot more at low speed, and maybe that's a bigger issue then I'd thought. Grumpy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 06:59:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 06:59:12 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 06:59:12 -0800 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: 6 cyl, 4 cyl DIS A couple questions for anyone who can help: OZ? If you have a 6cyl app that is DIS and the prom has a Cyl select byte, and you reset the cyl number byte to 4. Would it work on a 4 banger? Anyone know for sure? Does anyone know of a 165 4cyl DIS app? (or 808?) Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 08:09:36 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:09:36 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:09:36 -0800 From: clive@problem.org (Clive Apps - 510-0020 ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: EGR ?s try this URL: www.ag.auburn.edu/users/gparmer/efi/egr.txt Clive ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 10:04:20 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:04:20 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:04:20 -0800 From: Gabe MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Holley Projection 2D Hello everyone, My uncle came upon a Holley ProJection 2D very cheap recently and purchased it. He currently has an analog original Projection on his Chev 383 that, after much "tuning" runs fairly acceptably. What I am wondering is have any of you had experience with both systems? Is the newer 2D computer a vast improvement over the analog system. Do you think it would be worth swapping out? I am under the impression that the 2D still lacks true engine load sensing via MAP or MAF but instead still uses TPS like the analog setup. Otherwise he will sell it and attempt to turn a little profit on it. Thanks Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 10:13:41 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:13:41 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:13:41 -0800 From: "jtyler" Subject: Re: GM crank reluctor Anyone know of a specific 4 or 6 cylinder GM engine (by year/model) that has a 7 notch "slip on" crank reluctor. Some are machined into the crank, but some photos I have seen show a "slip on style" up near the crank pulley. Problem is they don't tell me year model. I need one. Thanks Jim ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 10:30:08 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:30:08 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:30:08 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D I'm just boring to listen to but why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly Grumpy | Hello everyone, | My uncle came upon a Holley ProJection 2D very cheap recently and purchased it. He | currently has an analog original Projection on his Chev 383 that, after much "tuning" | runs fairly acceptably. | What I am wondering is have any of you had experience with both systems? Is the newer | 2D computer a vast improvement over the analog system. Do you think it would be worth | swapping out? I am under the impression that the 2D still lacks true engine load | sensing via MAP or MAF but instead still uses TPS like the analog setup. | Otherwise he will sell it and attempt to turn a little profit on it. | Thanks | Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 10:48:31 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:48:31 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:48:31 -0800 From: Gabe MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D I would love to do that, and hopefully will be able to in the future, my stepfather has a 454 in a 3/4 ton 4X4 '72 chevy w/Holley analog 4bbl that needs the same treatment. I believe I have seen where there is a place for IAC in the Holley TB (I think I remember reading somewhere that it is a Chrysler unit?). I guess I should start gathering info on what all is going to be needed, I think the Holley has 85lb/h injectors. What would be a good cal to start with? I was thinking this might be a quick and easy improvement for the short haul though... Do you know off hand how much air a BBC TB will flow??? I guess I could as my uncle how big his throttle plates are in the Holley. Thanks Gabe Bruce Plecan wrote: > I'm just boring to listen to but why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get > a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some > spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. > I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell > to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly > Grumpy > > | Hello everyone, > | My uncle came upon a Holley ProJection 2D very cheap recently and > purchased it. He > | currently has an analog original Projection on his Chev 383 that, after > much "tuning" > | runs fairly acceptably. > | What I am wondering is have any of you had experience with both systems? > Is the newer > | 2D computer a vast improvement over the analog system. Do you think it > would be worth > | swapping out? I am under the impression that the 2D still lacks true > engine load > | sensing via MAP or MAF but instead still uses TPS like the analog setup. > | Otherwise he will sell it and attempt to turn a little profit on it. > | Thanks > | Gabe > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 11:08:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:08:32 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:08:32 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D | I would love to do that, and hopefully will be able to in the future, my | stepfather has a 454 in a 3/4 ton 4X4 '72 chevy w/Holley analog 4bbl that needs | the same treatment. I believe I have seen where there is a place for IAC in the | Holley TB (I think I remember reading somewhere that it is a Chrysler unit?). I | guess I should start gathering info on what all is going to be needed, I think | the Holley has 85lb/h injectors. What would be a good cal to start with? 454 BBC, 747 prom calibration. Will take some work to get it, right. 4@85 would feed, what 720 HP, which is ridiculious (for a TBI, again IMHO). So part of the problem with the 4@85 idea is like when you run big injecotors on any thing, screwy injector durations (IMHO). Then how much airflow do you really need?. | I was thinking this might be a quick and easy improvement for the short haul | though... Ya, but why do things twice?.. Sorry but I'm getting to old to want to spend my time doing things over. In a long run cheaper to do it right (?) the first time. | Do you know off hand how much air a BBC TB will flow??? I guess I could as my | uncle how big his throttle plates are in the Holley. The two barrel 2" according to Holley is 670 CFM. The 4 barrel holleys as I recall are 1 5/8, or 1 11/16"... Grumpy | | Thanks | Gabe | | Bruce Plecan wrote: | | > I'm just boring to listen to but why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get | > a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some | > spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. | > I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell | > to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly | > Grumpy | > | > | Hello everyone, | > | My uncle came upon a Holley ProJection 2D very cheap recently and | > purchased it. He | > | currently has an analog original Projection on his Chev 383 that, after | > much "tuning" | > | runs fairly acceptably. | > | What I am wondering is have any of you had experience with both systems? | > Is the newer | > | 2D computer a vast improvement over the analog system. Do you think it | > would be worth | > | swapping out? I am under the impression that the 2D still lacks true | > engine load | > | sensing via MAP or MAF but instead still uses TPS like the analog setup. | > | Otherwise he will sell it and attempt to turn a little profit on it. | > | Thanks | > | Gabe | > | > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 11:39:52 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:39:52 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:39:52 -0800 From: Gabe MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D Bruce Plecan wrote: > | I would love to do that, and hopefully will be able to in the future, my > | stepfather has a 454 in a 3/4 ton 4X4 '72 chevy w/Holley analog 4bbl that > needs > | the same treatment. I believe I have seen where there is a place for IAC > in the > | Holley TB (I think I remember reading somewhere that it is a Chrysler > unit?). I > | guess I should start gathering info on what all is going to be needed, I > think > | the Holley has 85lb/h injectors. What would be a good cal to start with? > > 454 BBC, 747 prom calibration. Will take some work to get it, right. 4@85 > would feed, what 720 HP, which is ridiculious (for a TBI, again IMHO). So > part of the problem with the 4@85 idea is like when you run big injecotors > on any thing, screwy injector durations (IMHO). Then how much airflow do > you really need?. I guess I should have clarified, my uncle has a 383 w/the 2bbl unit with the 85lb/h. My stepfather has the 4bbl unit with unknown injectors sizes. > | I was thinking this might be a quick and easy improvement for the short > haul > | though... > > Ya, but why do things twice?.. Sorry but I'm getting to old to want to > spend my time doing things over. In a long run cheaper to do it right (?) > the first time. Yes, you're probably right. Actually, I am going to as my uncle if he would rather do a TPI setup or modify his TB setup, both options using GMECM's (he likes the idea of being able to get a replacement ECU at a parts store if one grenades on a road trip). I have just been a little gun-shy about working on someone else's stuff when I have had so much trouble with my own TPI conversion. I just had lots of little stuff come up, I guess that's to be expected when you get an '85 model. The (I believe to be) bad 85 ECM was most of my problem, along with partially clogged injectors, bad intake manifold gasket, MAF troubles, bad connections on the old harness, and a million other things I am forgetting. I have converted my setup to a 1227165 and an '89 calibration now and things are much better. BTW does anyone have a .ald file for Carbytes for this cal???? > > | Do you know off hand how much air a BBC TB will flow??? I guess I could > as my > | uncle how big his throttle plates are in the Holley. > > The two barrel 2" according to Holley is 670 CFM. > The 4 barrel holleys as I recall are 1 5/8, or 1 11/16"... > Grumpy Good info so far, Thanks.... Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 22 12:01:47 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:01:47 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:01:47 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D | > 454 BBC, 747 prom calibration. Will take some work to get it, right. 4@85 | > would feed, what 720 HP, which is ridiculious (for a TBI, again IMHO). So | > part of the problem with the 4@85 idea is like when you run big injecotors | > on any thing, screwy injector durations (IMHO). Then how much airflow do | > you really need?. | I guess I should have clarified, my uncle has a 383 w/the 2bbl unit with the | 85lb/h. | My stepfather has the 4bbl unit with unknown injectors sizes. The 4 barrels come 65. 75, or 85 as I recall. The late BBC come with 80-5 and the early with 90-5 injectors. Need to ask/look in archives for what years thou. | Yes, you're probably right. Actually, I am going to as my uncle if he would | rather do a TPI setup or modify his TB setup, both options using GMECM's (he | likes the idea of being able to get a replacement ECU at a parts store if one | grenades on a road trip). I have just been a little gun-shy about working on | someone else's stuff when I have had so much trouble with my own TPI | conversion. I just had lots of little stuff come up, I guess that's to be | expected when you get an '85 model. The (I believe to be) bad 85 ECM was most | of my problem, along with partially clogged injectors, bad intake manifold | gasket, MAF troubles, bad connections on the old harness, and a million other | things I am forgetting. We all do the first couple times, gets better thou. | I have converted my setup to a 1227165 and an '89 calibration now and things are | much better. | BTW does anyone have a .ald file for Carbytes for this cal???? > | Do you know off hand how much air a BBC TB will flow??? I guess I could | > as my | > | uncle how big his throttle plates are in the Holley. | > The two barrel 2" according to Holley is 670 CFM. | > The 4 barrel holleys as I recall are 1 5/8, or 1 11/16"... | > Grumpy | Good info so far, Thanks.... | Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 04:00:21 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 04:00:21 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 04:00:21 -0800 From: Rex Weatherford MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GM crank reluctor jtyler wrote: > > Anyone know of a specific 4 or 6 cylinder GM engine (by year/model) that has a 7 notch "slip on" crank reluctor. Some are machined into the crank, but some photos I have seen show a "slip on style" up near the crank pulley. Problem is they don't tell me year model. I need one. > > Thanks > Jim > I have been a lurker for about a week, but I may have a place for you to look.... The Quad4 engines have a 7X ignition signal that I assume comes from the crank position sensor. I have no idea if it will "slip off" or if it is machined in. I also know there is a difference between the early Quad's and the later Quad crank. I think they moved the sensor or reluctor wheel by 15 degrees.... I'm a very green newbie so be nice... ;^) Rex Weatherford 92 Beretta GTZ 2.3L DOHC Quad4 15.531 @ 91.28 mph (stock) http://www.beretta.net http://www.mindspring.com/~rweatherford/rexw/rexhome.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 05:17:10 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:17:10 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 05:17:10 -0800 From: Ludis Langens MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 6 cyl, 4 cyl DIS "jtyler" wrote: > If you have a 6cyl app that is DIS and the prom has a Cyl select byte, and you reset the cyl number byte to 4. Would it work on a > 4 banger? > Anyone know for sure? Theory is: The hardware also needs to know the number of cylinders in a port injected application. I've never seen any code that reads the cylinder select byte and writes it into an output port. Thus, the MEMCAL likely sets the number of cylinders (and PFI vs TBI modes.) > Does anyone know of a 165 4cyl DIS app? (or 808?) The only '165 4cyl applications are: 1987-91 S10 2.5, 1986 (only!) J-body 2.0 w/ MT (only!), and possibly some 1988-89 Isuzus. You get to look up which of these are DIS. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 06:24:16 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:24:16 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:24:16 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 6 cyl, 4 cyl DIS The 86 in my book just shows vin J and it's dissy. The 2.5 as far as I know are dissy also. BTW, these others are single TBI, not TPI......... Grumpy | > Does anyone know of a 165 4cyl DIS app? (or 808?) | The only '165 4cyl applications are: 1987-91 S10 2.5, 1986 (only!) | J-body 2.0 w/ MT (only!), and possibly some 1988-89 Isuzus. You get to | look up which of these are DIS. | | -- | Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com | Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 09:10:10 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:10:10 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:10:10 -0800 From: Chris Serrano MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: ford 3.8 v-6 DIS Can anyone tell me where to find out what years ford used DIS ignition on the 3.8 v-6 and what cars it was in? thanks... Sometimes I like the weather in Long Beach, CA. If mail bounces, please retry! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 18:03:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:03:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:03:13 -0800 From: anthony schmidt Subject: Delco, coil on plug Does anyone know of a delco engine management system that runs 4 or 8 cyl with multicoil. We are looking at fitting this system to a late model 4cyl BMW. Thanks for your time. Anthony Schmidt ALS Performance Sydney Australia anthony@alsperf.com.au Phone 02 9798 6511 Fax 02 9798 9565 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 18:19:00 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:19:00 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:19:00 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Delco, coil on plug Starting in like 99 on the LS1 engine series, called smart coils, about $40 (good guy price) USA each. Takes special coil wires. Check the archives was some limited data here or at the gmecm archives Grumpy | Does anyone know of a delco engine management system | that runs 4 or 8 cyl with multicoil. We are looking at | fitting this system to a late model 4cyl BMW. | | Thanks for your time. | | Anthony Schmidt | ALS Performance | Sydney Australia | anthony@alsperf.com.au | Phone 02 9798 6511 | Fax 02 9798 9565 | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 21:33:25 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:33:25 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:33:25 -0800 From: "Diego Martin Monteverde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Alfa 33 16 Valves Hi, Do anyone know the entry points of the alfa 33 16 valves motronic EPROM? Regards, Martin -----Mensaje original----- De: DIY_EFI Digest Para: DIY_EFI-Digest@lists.diy-efi.org Fecha: Jueves 20 de Enero de 2000 22:37 Asunto: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #33 > >DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, January 20 2000 Volume 05 : Number 033 > > > >In this issue: > > 7730v2 ecu file > re:Minimum to run GMECM? > Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > [admin] test diy_efi@esl 1 > >See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the >DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:47:17 -0700 >From: cwagner@info2000.net >Subject: 7730v2 ecu file > >If anyone is interested, I uploaded a new ecu file to incoming. The >ecu file is for use with the 8D code (90-92 Corvett and Camaro). >Let me know how it works. It is specifically taylored for use with >Winbin and Promedit 6. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:10:31 -0500 >From: "jtyler" >Subject: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > >>Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:07:27 -0500 >>From: "Bruce Plecan" >>Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > >>You want to run the system, in your own configuration, for what ever >reason. Your not going to like it when your done. >>Look in the archives, for the dozen of so threads about deleting the >VSS. The other inputs are all necessary, also. > >VSS controls (at least) : > >Idle air Control Valve. Manual Trans/manual clutch. I only need one Idle speed after warm up. > >Canister Purge. Emissions are a non issue for this app. >Torque Converter. Manual trans.... >Cruise. don't care it doesn't have one >Trans shift solenoids. manual trans.... >Electric cooling fans. A simple temp controlled fan is fine. The ECM > doesn't need to do this. > >Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... >sorry I bothered you with it. > >Jim > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 17:27:08 -0500 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: re:Minimum to run GMECM? > >THESE ARE ALL OUTPUTS!!!!. >If you want to get/or seemingly pissy, fine, I'll withdraw my efforts to >answer your questions. >Grumpy > >| Canister Purge. Emissions are a non issue for this app. >| Torque Converter. Manual trans.... >| Cruise. don't care it doesn't have one >| Trans shift solenoids. manual trans.... >| Electric cooling fans. A simple temp controlled fan is fine. The ECM >| doesn't need to do this. >| Perhaps this application is just too basic for all that GM wizardry... >| sorry I bothered you with it. >| Jim > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 18:43:58 -0500 >From: jsg@jsgpc.mrcday.com >Subject: [admin] test diy_efi@esl 1 > >- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@list.diy-efi.org > >------------------------------ > >End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #33 >**************************** > >To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > >in the body of a message to "Majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org". > >A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to >subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 24 22:52:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:52:53 -0800 Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:52:53 -0800 From: Orin MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Delco, coil on plug The 'Corvette' coils? I've run my Audi 5000 turbo engine on five of them. Regular Bosch end wires plugged right in! Electronics to drive them is a different matter... Orin. > Starting in like 99 on the LS1 engine series, > called smart coils, about $40 (good guy price) USA each. > Takes special coil wires. > Check the archives was some limited data here or at the gmecm archives > Grumpy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 11:04:08 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:04:08 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:04:08 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fw: Water injection (tech refs) >From another list, just thought some folks might like to get the real info., about H2O injection. Personally, the Harry Ricardo book had enough detail to satisfy me.... Bruce | > If you try to cool compressed air by injecting water, you | > are cooling the intake but displacing oxygen molecules with | > water molecules. Does this actually result in a net | > increase in oxygen for combustion? I would inject the | > water into the intake ports to get liquid water into the | > combustion chamber, not water vapor. | The main purpose of water injection is to avoid detonation, | which allows for more spark advance and/or more boost. But | water injection can also improve volumetric efficiency, so | yes there is actually a net increase in oxygen (up to a | certain rate of water injection, approx 50% to 100% of fuel). | From: | OK, here are my references on water injection: IThere is some really nice water injection data in A. R. Rogowski's | textbook "Elements of Internal Combustion Engines", McGraw-Hill, 1953, | ISBN 07-053575-2, pages 106-109 (unfortunately out of print last time I | checked). He shows 50% improvement in detonation-limited IMEP (basically | torque) at stoichiometry, and 28% under more typical fuel-rich conditions, | using water flow at 50% of fuel flow. He showed that you get about 2/3 of | the benefit using water flow at 25% of fuel flow. It's not clear from the | text, but I think these benefits were from increasing boost. The data is | referenced from Rowe and Ladd, Journal of the SAE volume 54, no. 1, Jan. | 1946, which is more widely available than the textbook. | | SAE paper 690018 "Inlet manifold water injection for control of nitrogen | oxides - theory and experiment", by Nicholls, El-Messiri, and Newhall, | 1969. Mostly part throttle, but does show 12% benefit in max torque with | water flow at 50% of fuel flow (naturally aspirated). [Oops, that was | model results, actual data showed much less benefit.] | | A good history and practical tips are available in "Turbochargers" by Hugh | MacInnes, HPBooks (a division of Price Stern Sloan Inc.), 1984. | | Sir Harry Ricardo did extensive experiments with water injection in the | 1920's, which are described in his textbook "The High-Speed Internal | Combustion Engine", 1958, pages 36-40. He concluded that water injection | enabled a compression ratio increase from 4:1 to 5:1 with very low octane | fuel, for about 10% fuel economy improvement. | | Water injection is rather briefly described in the classic textbook by | Charles F. Taylor "The Internal-Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice" | (1968, 1985) Volume 2, page 70. He recommends water flow at 50% of fuel | flow. | | There is quite a literature on water injection for piston aircraft engines | from the 1940's, but they are not widely available. Some examples are | Rothrock et al., "The induction of water to the inlet air as a means of | internal cooling in aircraft-engine cylinders", NACA TR 756, 1943; and | Bellman and Evvard "Knock-limited performance of several internal | coolants", NACA TR 812 (ARR), 1945. Note that NACA was the precursor to | NASA. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 11:23:56 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:23:56 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:23:56 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used for initial tuning????. They want $300, for theirs. Grumpy ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 12:07:33 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:07:33 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:07:33 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter >Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 >sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used >for initial tuning????. >They want $300, for theirs. >Grumpy Sounds like it must be the Bosch sensor--that one uses four wires--anybody know for sure?? Greg > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 15:30:27 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:30:27 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:30:27 -0800 From: "Peacock, Kenneth" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Injector Info I have a 1988 firebird with the 2.8 MPFI V6 with 5 leaky injectors GM casting # 5235210 Any idea how many LB's per hour these are ? I have a set (8) of 5235211 19lb 305 injectors, possibly a substitute? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 15:42:37 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:42:37 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:42:37 -0800 From: Ludis Langens MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Injector Info "Peacock, Kenneth" wrote: > > I have a 1988 firebird with the 2.8 MPFI V6 with 5 leaky injectors GM > casting # 5235210 > > Any idea how many LB's per hour these are ? Probably 15's. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 16:11:03 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:11:03 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:11:03 -0800 From: "Robert W. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Archives There are a pair of files on incoming for now called GM_ECMArchives.zip and GoodDIY_EFIArchives.zip. These are the referenced archives with headers and quotes (as indicated by > or|) removed. There is a separator between each message "-<><>....." and a three line header: $Date: date information $Subject: subject information $From: sender -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 18:16:40 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:16:40 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:16:40 -0800 From: "Diego Martin Monteverde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: EDIS Coil Pack To the list, How does the "EDIS Coil Pack" work? Thanks Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Tue Jan 25 19:47:45 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:47:45 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:47:45 -0800 From: "Diego Martin Monteverde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: generic software Hello, I'm wondering if there is in the diy_efi ftp server any free generic software able to show/graph the contents of an EPROM. If somebody knows, thanks in advance Martin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 06:05:59 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:05:59 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:05:59 -0800 From: steve ravet MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Archives Actually I deleted the bad DIYEFI archive and renamed the good one to: DIY_EFIArchives.zip --steve "Robert W. Hughes" wrote: > > There are a pair of files on incoming for now called GM_ECMArchives.zip > and GoodDIY_EFIArchives.zip. These are the referenced archives with > headers and quotes (as indicated by > or|) removed. There is a separator > between each message "-<><>....." and a three line header: > $Date: date information > $Subject: subject information > $From: sender > > -- > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > BackYard Engineering > 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W > Houston, Texas > rwhughe@ev1.net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 06:24:58 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:24:58 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:24:58 -0800 From: steve ravet MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: generic software winbin, promedit are both available on the ftp site (ftp.diy-efi.org). The catch is you have to tell the software where the tables are in the image. For some ECMs there are .ecu files with this info, for others you have to figure it out. Also look at www.tunercat.com for some shareware. --steve Diego Martin Monteverde wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm wondering if there is in the diy_efi ftp server any free generic > software able to show/graph the contents of an EPROM. > If somebody knows, thanks in advance > > Martin > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 06:41:38 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:41:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 06:41:38 -0800 From: J W Hodgson MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Water Injection Another great reference on water injection is in Obert's "Internal Combustion Engines and Air Pollution". He shows basically that the beneficial effect of water injection is to suppress knock and if it is used on an engine that is not knocking it has no beneficial effect (unless it allows more spark timing that results in greater torque). Water injection is very effective in reducing NOx emissions (as is the addition of any diluent). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 07:33:55 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:33:55 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:33:55 -0800 From: Laura & Neil MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: water/alcohol injection > | OK, here are my references on water injection: > IThere is some really nice water injection data in A. R. Rogowski's > | textbook "Elements of Internal Combustion Engines", McGraw-Hill, 1953, > | ISBN 07-053575-2, pages 106-109 (unfortunately out of print last time I > | checked). He shows 50% improvement in detonation-limited IMEP (basically > | torque) at stoichiometry, and 28% under more typical fuel-rich conditions, > | using water flow at 50% of fuel flow. He showed that you get about 2/3 of > | the benefit using water flow at 25% of fuel flow. It's not clear from the > | text, but I think these benefits were from increasing boost. The data is > | referenced from Rowe and Ladd, Journal of the SAE volume 54, no. 1, Jan. > | 1946, which is more widely available than the textbook. > | > | SAE paper 690018 "Inlet manifold water injection for control of nitrogen > | oxides - theory and experiment", by Nicholls, El-Messiri, and Newhall, > | 1969. Mostly part throttle, but does show 12% benefit in max torque with > | water flow at 50% of fuel flow (naturally aspirated). [Oops, that was > | model results, actual data showed much less benefit.] > | > | A good history and practical tips are available in "Turbochargers" by Hugh > | MacInnes, HPBooks (a division of Price Stern Sloan Inc.), 1984. > | > | Sir Harry Ricardo did extensive experiments with water injection in the > | 1920's, which are described in his textbook "The High-Speed Internal > | Combustion Engine", 1958, pages 36-40. He concluded that water injection > | enabled a compression ratio increase from 4:1 to 5:1 with very low octane > | fuel, for about 10% fuel economy improvement. > | > | Water injection is rather briefly described in the classic textbook by > | Charles F. Taylor "The Internal-Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice" > | (1968, 1985) Volume 2, page 70. He recommends water flow at 50% of fuel > | flow. > | > | There is quite a literature on water injection for piston aircraft engines > | from the 1940's, but they are not widely available. Some examples are > | Rothrock et al., "The induction of water to the inlet air as a means of > | internal cooling in aircraft-engine cylinders", NACA TR 756, 1943; and > | Bellman and Evvard "Knock-limited performance of several internal > | coolants", NACA TR 812 (ARR), 1945. Note that NACA was the precursor to > | NASA. > My Father was a radio operator for the Royal Air Force bomber command during WWII. He told me that to get fully loaded Lancaster bombers off the ground from some of the small grass airstrips, they sent the engines throught the gate (overode the max rev limiter) and injected a mixture of water and methanol. He knows nothing about the science behind this, all he knew was it gave a tremendous power boost. Anyone on the list ever heard of this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 07:52:43 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:52:43 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 07:52:43 -0800 From: Scott_Hay@toyota.com Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39,toyota o2 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:08:37 -0700 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter >Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 >sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used >for initial tuning????. >They want $300, for theirs. >Grumpy Sounds like it must be the Bosch sensor--that one uses four wires--anybody know for sure?? Grumpy/Greg The Toyota sensor can in fact measure a broad range of a/f ratios but so far, there is little information we have in the US as to how it actually works. The sensor does have 4 wires, B+ for heater, ground for heater - controlled by ecm (pwm), afr+ which supplies +3.3v from the ecm to one side of the sensor, and afr- which the ecm supplies +3.0v to the other side of the sensor. We do see a variable voltage when using a scanner tool but when you measure the sensor itself, voltage is not moving with major shifts in afr???? The general thought is that it monitors the amperage and the direction of current flow to determine the afr. The scan tool voltage is a calculated # to give diagnostic functions. Very good and incredibly accurate sensor which operates in a linear fashion to afr. This will probably add more questions than it answers but it is a start. Scott > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 08:25:56 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:25:56 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:25:56 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39,toyota o2 >Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:08:37 -0700 >From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) >Subject: Re: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter > >>Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 >>sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used >>for initial tuning????. >>They want $300, for theirs. >>Grumpy > >Sounds like it must be the Bosch sensor--that one uses four wires--anybody >know for sure?? > > >Grumpy/Greg > >The Toyota sensor can in fact measure a broad range of a/f ratios but so far, >there is little information we have in the US as to how it actually works. > >The sensor does have 4 wires, B+ for heater, ground for heater - controlled by >ecm (pwm), afr+ which supplies +3.3v from the ecm to one side of the >sensor, and >afr- which the ecm supplies +3.0v to the other side of the sensor. > >We do see a variable voltage when using a scanner tool but when you measure the >sensor itself, voltage is not moving with major shifts in afr???? The general >thought is that it monitors the amperage and the direction of current flow to >determine the afr. The scan tool voltage is a calculated # to give diagnostic >functions. > >Very good and incredibly accurate sensor which operates in a linear fashion to >afr. > >This will probably add more questions than it answers but it is a start. > >Scott I suspect that Frank Parker is right. The NTK sensors started out life with seven wires, went to six, then to five. Sounds like this may well be a four wire iteration of it that Toyota is using. If so, the Greddy meter might be a pretty good deal indeed. Greg >> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 09:05:16 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:05:16 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:05:16 -0800 From: Brandon@linnstate.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF681F.7EB08BFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have seen several articles over the years about water injection for high compression engine running on low octane street gas, and I believe methanol alcohol mixed with water gives better results. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF681F.7EB08BFC Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39

I have seen several articles over the years about = water injection for high compression engine running on low octane = street gas, and I believe methanol alcohol mixed with water gives = better results.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF681F.7EB08BFC-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 09:52:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:52:12 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:52:12 -0800 From: Rex Weatherford MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Dave Morrills O2 meter? I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few questions. What is the LM3914? It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that true? How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values between .100v and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means anything. Correct? My car is a Beretta GTZ with Olds Quad4. Will I be able to tell when the car is reach and lean from this? I'd assume so. Thanks... I'm sure I'll have more questions. Rex 92 Beretta GTZ http://www.beretta.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 10:43:34 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:43:34 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:43:34 -0800 From: Jim Fitzgerald Subject: Water Inj, T. Retard story I had good success with water injection on a turbo Mustang. (79 suck thru the carb model, 2.3L 4cyl). I used a VW W. Washer bottle pressurized by turbo boost to make volume proportional to boost. I exp. with many jets and injected ahead of turbo, Casual driving tips in the turbo and wastes water, so I used an adjustable pressure switch and a solenoid valve to limit consumption. I used W. Washer fluid most of the time, to get more cooling and enrichment from the alcohol content, besides it gets cold here in IL and plain water would freeze. The Mustang originally had a crude OEM electronic timing retard system, two (boost) pressure switches that retarded the timing in steps at about 2 and 6 lb. of boost. I replaced this with a mechanical setup, using a modified compound vacuum advance can from a Ford V8. I could adjust it with it with built in screw, and with an external pressure bleed, same as for the turbo waste gate. It gave smooth, continuous and linear adv. and retard curves. The combo of the water and the timing retard allowed boost to about 15 lb.. I could run with the 5L V8s until they switched to EFI. Heaven forbid if the water tank would run dry though, the engine would knock itself silly before I could off the throttle, never broke it though, ran for 110K, until turbo seals left. Anyone contemplating water injection should look into a water level switch that would limit boost and/or timing.... Jim F. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 10:51:38 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:51:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:51:38 -0800 From: Rich Schimmelbusch MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D [long] "Bruce Plecan" wrote: > .......why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get > a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some > spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. > I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell > to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly > Grumpy This thread is timely for me as I want to start this project on my SBC. I sent Howell an e-mail asking about their 4bbl kit, along with a fairly detailed description of my application, and all I got back was "the 4 bbl kit has been discontinued. What year car is this going into."!! So now I have a re-worded query pending with them regarding the 2 bbl kit. Maybe they'd like to sell one of those... It sounds like IAC is the mod required on the Holley TB to make it work? Does anyone know which Holley TB is a candidate for the modification, analog, D, or Di, or is there a difference? Nothing a competent machinist couldn't handle, right? Can everything else remain stock? Harness? (Howell sells a modified harness one...) I would prefer a 4 bbl TB; are there any stock solutions that would bolt to a square or spread-bore flange? As far as 2 to 4 bbl adapters go, hood clearance is tight already. Here is what I wrote them: > ....355 c.i. Chev small block with forged flat-top pistons built around an > Edelbrock Performer cam (204/214 deg. @ 0.050 in., 0.420/0.442 in.) and manifold > (idle-5500 rpm) package. The engine uses iron L31 Vortec heads, exhausting through > 1 5/8 x 36 in. headers. The headers will be replaced and I will probably use a > "shorty" style. This is installed in a 1979 z/28 (3700 lbs.) currently in front > of a THM 350 automatic (2.52/1.52/1:1), but probably to be replaced by a THM > 200-4R (2.54/1.57/1:1/0.67). The rear gears are 3.42. Hmmm, it does say what year the vehicle is... so their tech weenies can't read either. > .... The idea of using production chevrolet parts with their attendant ease of > replacement also appeals to me. I would like use the 1227747 computer, components > (distributor, etc.), and sensors from the '87-'90 GM TBI system. Since I am using > the Vortec heads and Edelbrock manifold, I obviously need to use a throttle body > assembly that will bolt on a square or spread-bore flange. I am able to change > camshafts if recommended, but I don't think I am able to go to the Performer > RPM manifold due to hood clearance considerations. Thanks in advance to anyone who can enlighten me in these matters! -- Rich mailto:rschimmelbusch@.att.net coming soon http://www.RainierAviation.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 11:14:41 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:14:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 11:14:41 -0800 From: garwillis@msn.com (Garfield Willis) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Greddy air-fuel ratio meter On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:31:12 -0500 "Bruce Plecan" wrote: >Almost looks good, anyone have any details about the 4 wire Toyota O2 >sensor, the tech guy at greddy's said it can read 18-8:1, but not to be used >for initial tuning????. >They want $300, for theirs. >Grumpy On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:08:37 -0700 bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) wrote: >Sounds like it must be the Bosch sensor--that one uses four wires--anybody >know for sure?? > >Greg Hey Bruce, Greg, There is a Toyota (Denso) current-pump style wideband O2 sensor that is 4-wires (scant literature says it senses the same pair of terminals for Vs-sensor output as it pumps current thru for Ip-current pump input; not sure how they can do that), the Toyota-Denso part no. is: 89467-33010, the application is the *front* (pre-cat) sensor, refered to as "Air Fuel Sensor" on Lexus RX300 and Toyota ES300 3.0 V6 *California-only cars* (that app. info is from old notes, and I can't put me fingers on the year data at the moment) ...BUT... I seriously doubt this is it. That sensor alone costs around $300 from Toyota (alot more than the Honda-NTK 5-wire sensor, for example), so it's doubtful a meter based on it would retail for around $300. Plus, the statement that it isn't useable for initial tune is perhaps a giveaway that the Greddy product isn't really based on a wideband O2 device, but rather a conventional heated 4-wire sensor-based meter, similar to the LED gizmos often sold as "low-cost AFR meters". As far as it being the older Bosch LSM-11 4-wire sensor that Greg alludes to, I also kinda doubt it, again from the price-point, and I'm not aware of Toyota ever using it in any of their products. Was this viewable on the web somewhere, Bruce? I didn't see it on the Greddy site. Gar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 12:09:27 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:09:27 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:09:27 -0800 From: "Gavin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Tim_Drury's_site=3F=BF=3F?= Anybody know whats happened to it, or an alternate address?¿? His bit in the projects page on the DIY_EFI site absolutely brilliant!(Hey, I'm a newbie at this!), and I want to see what else he has got up to. Myself, I'm starting a new programmable CDI box for a two-stroke bike. It's only ignition,(although on some modern crossers they have powerjet carbs), but I hope to have a shift light setup, rev-limiter, and maybe a switch on the bars to switch to different ignition curves. But hey, I think getting the bike running with my homebrew box will be a start. Oh, BTW, anybody got any info on bike CDI boxes, (Preferably not the big bike boxes which incorporate EFI as well, but any info is much appreciated!) Thanks a lot. Gavin ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 13:34:44 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:34:44 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:34:44 -0800 From: "Robert W. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: EFI332 Archives There is a file on incoming for now called EFI332Archives.zip This is the referenced archives with headers and quotes (as indicated by > or|)and blank lines removed. There is a separator between each message "-<><>....." and a three line header: $Date: date information $Subject: subject information $From: sender also the WINMAIL trash has been removed. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 14:17:19 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:17:19 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:17:19 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D [long] To make a long story short, unless you have a Holley TB in your hands for free, just go to a recycling center, and get a TB of a BBC. It will have 80, or 90 lb/hr injectors already. If too big find a late GM Cab and look for the Brn/Yel injectors. More color ID's in archives. BTW, the BBC TB has 2" buttterflies like the Holley, and the IAC is already there. I'm glad to hear Howell, figured out what they were doing was at least dumb, or wrong. That was a long thread....... Grumpy ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich Schimmelbusch To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Holley Projection 2D [long] | "Bruce Plecan" wrote: | > .......why not wire it to a 1227747 (gm ecm), get | > a copy of the demoware from Tunercat, a chip burner, an eraser, and some | > spare proms, and custonize a good computer to your needs. | > I don't know if any of the holleys use an IAC, might need to get Howell | > to modify it, or get one from a junkyard, the BBC have a 2" butterfly | > Grumpy | | This thread is timely for me as I want to start this project on my SBC. I sent | Howell an e-mail asking about their 4bbl kit, along with a fairly detailed | description of my application, and all I got back was "the 4 bbl kit has been | discontinued. What year car is this going into."!! So now I have a re-worded | query pending with them regarding the 2 bbl kit. Maybe they'd like to sell one | of those... | | It sounds like IAC is the mod required on the Holley TB to make it work? Does | anyone know which Holley TB is a candidate for the modification, analog, D, or | Di, or is there a difference? Nothing a competent machinist couldn't handle, | right? Can everything else remain stock? Harness? (Howell sells a modified | harness one...) I would prefer a 4 bbl TB; are there any stock solutions that | would bolt to a square or spread-bore flange? As far as 2 to 4 bbl adapters | go, hood clearance is tight already. | | Here is what I wrote them: | > ....355 c.i. Chev small block with forged flat-top pistons built around an | > Edelbrock Performer cam (204/214 deg. @ 0.050 in., 0.420/0.442 in.) and manifold | > (idle-5500 rpm) package. The engine uses iron L31 Vortec heads, exhausting through | > 1 5/8 x 36 in. headers. The headers will be replaced and I will probably use a | > "shorty" style. This is installed in a 1979 z/28 (3700 lbs.) currently in front | > of a THM 350 automatic (2.52/1.52/1:1), but probably to be replaced by a THM | > 200-4R (2.54/1.57/1:1/0.67). The rear gears are 3.42. | | Hmmm, it does say what year the vehicle is... so their tech weenies can't read | either. | | > .... The idea of using production chevrolet parts with their attendant ease of | > replacement also appeals to me. I would like use the 1227747 computer, components | > (distributor, etc.), and sensors from the '87-'90 GM TBI system. Since I am using | > the Vortec heads and Edelbrock manifold, I obviously need to use a throttle body | > assembly that will bolt on a square or spread-bore flange. I am able to change | > camshafts if recommended, but I don't think I am able to go to the Performer | > RPM manifold due to hood clearance considerations. | | Thanks in advance to anyone who can enlighten me in these matters! | -- | Rich | mailto:rschimmelbusch@.att.net | coming soon http://www.RainierAviation.com | | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 14:29:06 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:29:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:29:06 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Dave Morrills O2 meter? Before you do anything search EGOR, and stuff like O2 sensor Grumpy | I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few questions. | What is the LM3914? | It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that | true? | How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values between .100v | and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means | anything. Correct? | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 15:24:06 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:24:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:24:06 -0800 From: "Greg Moore" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: basic tuning This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BF6811.66F79EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Can anyone point me to a site that has basic tuning information? How to = recognize when the timing is optimized and mixture is right for the = conditions - load, rpm etc. I've installed a TEC11 on a Mercedes M30 (2.8l I6) that's in a '59 = Unimog. It's been running great for a year now but I'd like to learn = more about recognizing 'ideal' timing and fuel maps. I'm also toying = with the idea of adding a turbo (mild 4-5lb boost) so I'd like to = research how to tune for that. Thanks. Cheers, Greg ------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BF6811.66F79EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,
 
Can anyone point me to a site that has basic tuning=20 information? How to recognize when the timing is optimized and mixture = is right=20 for the conditions - load, rpm etc.
 
I've installed a TEC11 on a Mercedes M30 (2.8l I6) = that's in a=20 '59 Unimog. It's been running great for a year now but I'd like to learn = more=20 about recognizing 'ideal' timing and fuel maps. I'm also toying with the = idea of=20 adding a turbo (mild 4-5lb boost) so I'd like to research how to tune = for=20 that.
 
Thanks.
 
Cheers, Greg
------=_NextPart_000_00AF_01BF6811.66F79EA0-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 15:32:55 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:32:55 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:32:55 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: basic tuning This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_012C_01BF682C.C89941C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At the FTP site Tuning.doc Grumpy Hello all, Can anyone point me to a site that has basic tuning information? How = to recognize when the timing is optimized and mixture is right for the = conditions - load, rpm etc. I've installed a TEC11 on a Mercedes M30 (2.8l I6) that's in a '59 = Unimog. It's been running great for a year now but I'd like to learn = more about recognizing 'ideal' timing and fuel maps. I'm also toying = with the idea of adding a turbo (mild 4-5lb boost) so I'd like to = research how to tune for that. Thanks. Cheers, Greg ------=_NextPart_000_012C_01BF682C.C89941C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At the FTP site
Tuning.doc
Grumpy

Hello all,
 
Can anyone point me to a site that has basic = tuning=20 information? How to recognize when the timing is optimized and mixture = is=20 right for the conditions - load, rpm etc.
 
I've installed a TEC11 on a Mercedes M30 (2.8l I6) = that's in=20 a '59 Unimog. It's been running great for a year now but I'd like to = learn=20 more about recognizing 'ideal' timing and fuel maps. I'm also toying = with the=20 idea of adding a turbo (mild 4-5lb boost) so I'd like to research how = to tune=20 for that.
 
Thanks.
 
Cheers, = Greg
------=_NextPart_000_012C_01BF682C.C89941C0-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 15:51:00 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:51:00 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 15:51:00 -0800 From: Roger Heflin MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Where to get 1-2 fuel injectors (Ford SVO 30lb equivalents) Hello, I have what I believe is a marginal fuel injector. One of the header pipes glows a light orange while the car is warming up (and lightly missing). After the car gets warmed up, the injector starts working correctly. This appears to have been a problem on my car for a while, I am pretty sure it is a bad injector and not a electrical problem, since it is pretty reliable that after it gets warmer it appears to start working correctly. Also the car is batch fire, so the only electrical problem possible is the wires connecting the injector to the other injectors on that side are bad. This is the only header pipe glowing, and I can clearly feel when the injector starts working correctly and I can clearly feel when it stops again (as it is warming up, it goes in and out). The injectors are Ford SVO 30lb/hr injectors, and ideas on what part number this would be? The local parts places need to know what the original vehicle was, and that I have no idea about. The injectors are currently installed on a 93 Z28. Roger rah@hit.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 17:53:41 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:53:41 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:53:41 -0800 From: Orin MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Where to get 1-2 fuel injectors (Ford SVO 30lb equivalents) > > I have what I believe is a marginal fuel injector. One of the header > pipes glows a light orange while the car is warming up (and lightly > missing). After the car gets warmed up, the injector starts working > correctly. This appears to have been a problem on my car for a > while, I am pretty sure it is a bad injector and not a electrical > problem, since it is pretty reliable that after it gets warmer it > appears to start working correctly. Also the car is batch fire, so > the only electrical problem possible is the wires connecting the > injector to the other injectors on that side are bad. This is the > only header pipe glowing, and I can clearly feel when the injector > starts working correctly and I can clearly feel when it stops again > (as it is warming up, it goes in and out). Obvious thing to try is swap the injector with one of its mates and see if the problem moves before buying anything new. Orin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Wed Jan 26 18:23:17 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:23:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 18:23:17 -0800 From: "Charles A. Fair" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: water/alcohol injection My mechanic friend Wiley told me a story about water injection. He said when he rebuilt rv motors that used water injection, they had very bad taper on the cylinders. He believes the water injection acted like a steam cleaner and removed the oil film from the cylinder walls... Water injection use became popular with RV's and high compression motors when super leaded fell out of use. My friend believes the engines suffered more damage than benefit from its use, also HP suffers greatly from using it, even though high levels of boost can be maintained. Might be some food for thought. He suggested a better substitute for water injection that would not kill power. This involves setting the EGR up for use under WOT in some sort of fashion... Maybe I misunderstood him, but does sound like an idea. If the EGR valve could be controlled by the ECU and opened when the knock sensor was set off or by a knock sum. This might work as an alternative to water injection without some of the disadvantages, such as running out of water. From some of the stories from other posters, guess the water injection can definitely work though. Chuck ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 09:09:47 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:09:47 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:09:47 -0800 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Correcting subject when replying Hi All, Just a quick request. Those of you who are still using the Digest could you make sure you change the subject line to from eg, Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39 To the subject you are actually replying to please. Thanx, Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 09:25:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:25:13 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:25:13 -0800 From: garwillis@msn.com (Garfield Willis) MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: toyota o2 On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:51:17 -0500 Scott_Hay@toyota.com >The Toyota sensor can in fact measure a broad range of a/f ratios but so far, >there is little information we have in the US as to how it actually works. Um guys, I've had a look at the pictures of this GReedy gizmo now, Bruce pointed me to: www.suprastore.com/supra/gredairfuelK.html but have a look Scott at that sensor, and see if it's the one you've been testing. I have a Toyota WB O2 sensor (cost me nearly $300 just for the sensor! argh), and it's definitely not the same animal as this one. Look carefully at the body shape and the probe tip openings. Judging from the description, I'd have to guess this is actually a conventional 4-wire heated sensor they've attempted to pull a calibration curve for, on the rich side. If so, it's AFR accuracy is gonna be pretty sloppy. >The sensor does have 4 wires, B+ for heater, ground for heater - controlled by >ecm (pwm), afr+ which supplies +3.3v from the ecm to one side of the sensor, and >afr- which the ecm supplies +3.0v to the other side of the sensor. > >We do see a variable voltage when using a scanner tool but when you measure the >sensor itself, voltage is not moving with major shifts in afr???? The general >thought is that it monitors the amperage and the direction of current flow to >determine the afr. The scan tool voltage is a calculated # to give diagnostic >functions. Yup, you're seeing there the behavior of all current-pump style sensors; you won't see much variation in Vs because there's a feedback loop in the interface that's intentionally attempting to hold Vs at a fixed value, while the current thru the pump is varied. It's the oxygen pump current that reflects the AFR, just as you surmise. In this case, it's the same two terminals +-afr, so the voltage across them is the Vs while the current thru them is the pump current. You've gotta be right about the scanner readout as well; that's AFTER the interface's pump current is read by the ECU and converted to AFR. >Very good and incredibly accurate sensor which operates in a linear fashion to >afr. > >This will probably add more questions than it answers but it is a start. If this is the sensor GReddy is using, at $285 for the complete system, it would indeed be a miracle deal. Doubtful, tho; check out the sensor. If someone can get a look at one of these, the Toyota part number should be right on the O2 sensor's metal outer jacket. Betcha a donut it's a conventional 4-wire heated sensor. :) Gar ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 10:01:51 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:01:51 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:01:51 -0800 From: "Greg Moore" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: basic tuning > At the FTP site > Tuning.doc > Grumpy If anyone else is looking for the file it's TuneTip1.doc It's a good start. Thanks Grumpy. Cheers, Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 14:32:23 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:32:23 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:32:23 -0800 From: Anthony Buccellato MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold, or saturated style injectors? I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors. I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width, relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this? Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible? Are there any injector mfg's that do a better job than others at atomisation? I've located 160 lb/hr units, but would prefer to get closer to my actual requirements, so as not to compromise idle too badly. - Clay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 14:56:15 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:15 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:56:15 -0800 From: "Randall" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter Rex Weatherford wrote : > > I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few > questions. > > What is the LM3914? It's an integrated circuit made by National Semiconductor, designed to create a bar graph display with a minimum of external components. National's data sheet is at http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3914.html . The part should be available from most full-line electronics supply houses (which leaves out Radio Shaft). > > It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that > true? Not quite. Current price is $36. See http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=4571 . > > How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values > between .100v > and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means > anything. Correct? Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically meaningless above about 0.9v. Randall ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 15:09:15 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:09:15 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:09:15 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter May I suggest you check the achives about O2 sensor, and EGOR so at least you have a clue about what your doing here. While you might consider it's output over .9 as useless, I say below that is about as meaningful, in general the <$100 sensors are designed to function as a switch with the on/off point at 14.7:1 Grumpy | Rex Weatherford wrote : | > I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few | > questions. > What is the LM3914? It's an integrated circuit made by National Semiconductor, designed to | create a bar graph display with a minimum of external components. | National's data sheet is at http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3914.html . The | part should be available from most full-line electronics supply houses | (which leaves out Radio Shaft). | > It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that | > true? | Not quite. Current price is $36. See | http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=4571 . | > How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values | > between .100v | > and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means | > anything. Correct? | Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the | Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically | meaningless above about 0.9v. | Randall ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 15:16:11 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:16:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:16:11 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors | It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM | requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe | these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold, | or saturated style injectors? You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs How big of motor is this?. | I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What | I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors. | I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width, | relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this? Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in the archives | Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold | at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be | aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible? | | Are there any injector mfg's that do a better job than others at | atomisation? Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to brand, and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice if some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs pressure. I've located 160 lb/hr units, but would prefer to get closer | to my actual requirements, so as not to compromise idle too badly. 105-160?. BZZZZZTTTT, assuming you initial calilation is right the other is way off. Grumpy | | - Clay | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 15:26:58 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:58 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:58 -0800 From: Orin MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter > Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the > Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically > meaningless above about 0.9v. LM3914 doesn't need to do 0 to 1.2V, it's easy enough to set scale and limits using a couple of resistors per LM3914. I use two LM3914s and set the first to do 0 to 0.5 V and the second 0.5 to 1V, using just one of the 1.2V references. Orin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 16:45:43 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:45:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:45:43 -0800 From: Richard Wakeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Tech 1 Questions Hi all, I am looking closer at the old "Tech 1" scan tool and have a few questions. 1) When "Tech 1" is connected to a VR commodore V8 is the cable that is used between "Tech 1" and ALDL the same cable (part number TA01299) that is used on the VN commodore but with an adaptor to suit the OBDII syle plug on the VR or do they use a different cable? 2) If a different cable is used for the VR commodore can someone give me the connections between the 15 pin D connector on the "Tech 1" and the 16 pin OBDII style plug. 3) Has anybody tried to reconstruct the circuit of the "Tech 1" or knows which pin of the 15 D pin plug uses the 8192 Data? 4) Does the "Tech 1" scan tool have various models depending on which country they are used in or is it just the Moduals for each vehicle that are different? The model of the "Tech 1" I am looking at here in Australia is 94-012 Thanks in advance Cheers Richard. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 17:18:11 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:18:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:18:11 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter > >Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the >Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically >meaningless above about 0.9v. > It is also basically meaningless if you are more than about 0.4 A/F ratio away from stoich! Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 17:26:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:26:12 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:26:12 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors >It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM >requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe >these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold, >or saturated style injectors? > >I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What >I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors. >I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width, >relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this? > >Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold >at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be >aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible? > >Are there any injector mfg's that do a better job than others at >atomisation? I've located 160 lb/hr units, but would prefer to get closer >to my actual requirements, so as not to compromise idle too badly. > >- Clay With an electromotive driver you will not have a snowball's chance where the sun don't shine of getting those injectors to idle. I believe that if you read the emotive literature (if they give you anything meaningful) that the minimum incremental change you can make to injector pw with their ecu is 64 us. I suggest that before spending ANY more money, you run some calculations, and figure out what minimum % change in AF ratio you would be making at idle!! (Even if the injectors would give repeatable flow at the very short pw you will need. Pretty revealing! Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 20:04:34 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:04:34 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:04:34 -0800 From: Shannen Durphey MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 727+LT1Conectr.jpg Help for separating the ecm from it's connector. Shannen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Thu Jan 27 21:49:38 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:49:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:49:38 -0800 From: Shawn B MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: alky/water inj Swiped from my Buick list was this lengthy post (minus the contact info) the goofy thing is that this was posted just today! start Subject: Water/alcohol injection I thought I would give my experiences with water/alcohol injection. First, lets clarify a few things. Water/alcohol injection is known in the aviation industry as "ADI" Anti Detonate Injection. I have been useing building ADI for many years on both aircraft engines and racing engines. I use to build 2,240 cid Rolls-Royce Griffon engines for unlimited hydroplanes. We use to run a factory liquid to air aftercooler AND liquid intercooler (the intercooler is a water jacket that surrounds the two stage superchager). But when the engine would backfire, it would sometimes rupture the aftercooler core. In a fresh water course, the added water induced into the intake system was OK, BUT in a salt water course.............salt water injection is NOT very good. So we decided to remove the aftercooler (besides, we were running out of aftercoolers seeing how the engines weren't produced after the late '40s) and increase the ADI quantity. In a 8 minute race we would consume 70 gallons of 115/145 AV gas with an additive in it, 25 gallons of 50/50 water/methanol, 130 lbs of nitrous oxide, and approx. 5 gals. of oil. We were running the engine at 4,200 RPM (calculate THAT piston velocity considering a 6.50" stroke and a 6.00" bore x 12) at 130 in/hg (in/hg is inches in mercury....approx 35+psi boost ..depending on atmospheric conditions) Detonation was and is always a problem at high boost levels. By removing the aftercooler we had more power due to increased airflow. We just replaced the aftercooler with a 6.00" inlet pipe from the superchager to the intake log/manifold. Back in 1989 I used ADI injection on my GN, and could use a Conley Mag4 race chip on 92 octane with no intercooler (I removed it to verify intercooler efficiency) and NO detonation. I have tuned a friends 87 T-Type to a 11.51 @ 117 on 92 octane pump gas, with a highly modified Jay Carter water/alcohol system. He was running 21-22 psi boost, ported heads, stock I/C, 2800 lock-up converter, DOT's, 202 cam, TE-44 turbo, with "blue tops", THDP, and through FOUR (4)mufflers. His car would run this with out doing ANYTHING to the car from the way it was run everyday on the street. ADI works by first reducing intake temps because of the latent heat value of the water and the alcohol. Methanol has 10 times the latent heat value of gasoline. And the steam that is created in the combustion chambers acts as a shock absorber to reduce tendencies to detonate. ADI has been around since the early thirties. ADI has even been used in early jet aircraft (707's and B-52's for example). ADI has to be understood to get the best results from it. It has to be tuned to your combination of parts and to the fuel curve of the system. On the street it can't be beat. At the track I would still recommend VP C-16 and a good intercooler because there are less things to cause problems. It does take a bit of tuning to accurately use ADI. Just think of it as ADI and NOT a power adder. It suppresses detonation. PERIOD. The friends T-Type used straight methanol and no water because the blue tops were too small for the car, so we used methanol as fuel enrichment AND ADI. stop Shawn GNandGS@feist.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 03:07:25 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:07:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 03:07:25 -0800 From: Andy Wyatt MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #40 Re Rex's Qs on the LM3914 the LM3914 is a chip manufactured by National Semiconductor. It is a dot/bar display driver chip - usually used to drive a ten segment LED bargraph. The 3914 is part of a family, and it specifically uses a linear scale. You can set the maximum and minimum voltages it will read (which correspond to LED1 and LED10) by applying voltages to external pins. You can also program either a dot (one LED only) or a bar graph (all LEDs from 1 to n, depending on voltage applied). You can hook one up the output of a standard O2 sensor which gives out the voltages you mentioned, and the chip also has a 1.25V reference built in, so you can program it to read 0 - 1.25V, which makes a pretty handy O2 display. There was a construction project done in Silicon Chip magazine, November 1995. I can give more details if required. Hope this is of some help Andy W :-D ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 06:52:07 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:52:07 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 06:52:07 -0800 From: Carlo Putter MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Electro-magnetic valves Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. Here is my idea: Used normal valves with light springs. The valves can be closed and opened by electro-magnetic coils on it. This would then give the option to the engine tuner to design a infinitely variable camshaft! But this would only be day-dreaming until any-body tries it. I haven't got any metal work tools, but have some power-electronics experience. The internal combustion engine, as we know it was develop about a century ago, so why can't it be changed? Any ideas, maybe I am way off track. Enjoy the weekends, tuning! Carlo Putter Stellenbosch South Africa ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 07:04:22 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:04:22 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:04:22 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Electro-magnetic valves Numerous attempts have been made at this. Some using two springs, and two coils, with valve parked 1/2 open. Some tried moving the rocker arm pivots, etc etc. Might try hunting around the patent office to see what's been done already Grumpy | Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've | got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. | | Here is my idea: | Used normal valves with light springs. The valves can be closed and opened | by electro-magnetic coils on it. This would then give the option to the | engine tuner to design a infinitely variable camshaft! But this would only | be day-dreaming until any-body tries it. I haven't got any metal work tools, | but have some power-electronics experience. | | The internal combustion engine, as we know it was develop about a century | ago, so why can't it be changed? | | Any ideas, maybe I am way off track. | | Enjoy the weekends, tuning! | Carlo Putter | Stellenbosch | South Africa | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 07:20:28 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:20:28 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:20:28 -0800 From: Rex Weatherford MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Electro-magnetic valves Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Numerous attempts have been made at this. > Some using two springs, and two coils, with valve parked 1/2 open. Some > tried moving the rocker arm pivots, etc etc. > Might try hunting around the patent office to see what's been done already > Grumpy > How does the new Toyota VVTTi or whatever it's called work. I had heard that it used variable lift and duration... That could have been bad information though. I did drive a new Celica GT-S with it and I was only 1/2 impressed. The felt like a really wimpy 4 cyl until at least 5500 RPM. Then it opened up and had good power up to 8000 RPM. It has a nice soft rev limiter at about 82-8300 RPM. You need the 6 speed to keep the thing in the power band.. ;^) I don't think it was any faster than my old Quad4. Rex Weatherford 92 Beretta GTZ 15.531 @ 91.28 mph (stock) http://www.beretta.net http://www.mindspring.com/~rweatherford/rexw/rexhome.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 07:26:47 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:26:47 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:26:47 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Electro-magnetic valves >Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've >got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. > >Here is my idea: >Used normal valves with light springs. The valves can be closed and opened >by electro-magnetic coils on it. This would then give the option to the >engine tuner to design a infinitely variable camshaft! But this would only >be day-dreaming until any-body tries it. I haven't got any metal work tools, >but have some power-electronics experience. > >The internal combustion engine, as we know it was develop about a century >ago, so why can't it be changed? > >Any ideas, maybe I am way off track. > >Enjoy the weekends, tuning! >Carlo Putter >Stellenbosch >South Africa Realize that you will need valve accelerations at least in the 500 g neighborhood to compete with what a modern camshaft can do!! Greg >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 07:56:08 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:56:08 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 07:56:08 -0800 From: vw@micron.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [vw-power] Re: Engine choice.. HELP! Check out SDS EFI at: http://www.sdsefi.com/index.html They sell what seems to be the perfect ECU to couple with some TWM or CB Throttle bodies. SDS also has some very helpful FAQs and tech articles. Try the Tech/FAQ page at the bottom of their main page. Steve We think that the next step is to just re-chip or outright replace > the *box* > with another ECU from another make of vehicle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 08:55:10 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:55:10 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:55:10 -0800 From: Anthony Buccellato MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors > You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. > To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs > How big of motor is this?. 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in the > archives Thanks. That's what I'd heard. > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to brand, > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice if > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs pressure. Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? - Clay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 09:06:23 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:06:23 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:06:23 -0800 From: Anthony Buccellato MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors > With an electromotive driver you will not have a snowball's chance where > the sun don't shine of getting those injectors to idle. I believe that if > you read the emotive literature (if they give you anything meaningful) that > the minimum incremental change you can make to injector pw with their ecu > is 64 us. I suggest that before spending ANY more money, you run some > calculations, and figure out what minimum % change in AF ratio you would be > making at idle!! (Even if the injectors would give repeatable flow at the > very short pw you will need. Pretty revealing! > Greg Good point. With large injectors pw resolution will be critical. Injector size is non-negotiable, of course, gotta feed the HP. I'll calculate what minimum pw will be needed, to effect AFR adjustment at idle. - Clay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 14:46:25 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:46:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:46:25 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Dribbles, and drabbles yes EFI This is what injectors look like when they fire. Notice the first large drop forming. The better the atonizationthe better the burn. As you increase the injecotr size this dribble gets larger in relationship to the total amount of fuel injected (since a smaller open duration). Hope that helps splain the big injector idle problem, not the only issue, but one of the major ones. Bruce http://neonjohn.4mg.com/files/car/mazbig.jpg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 14:55:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:55:30 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:55:30 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Buccellato To: Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors | > You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. | > To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs | > How big of motor is this?. | | 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ | 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within | reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 | lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors | sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn | up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a | reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. | | > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in | the | > archives | | Thanks. That's what I'd heard. | | > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to | brand, | > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice | if | > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs | pressure. | | Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? | | - Clay | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 15:01:46 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:01:46 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:01:46 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors Is this a boat or car?. If a car I'd really think about staged injectors. That way use you 80 for HO, and add a set of 30s for idle cruise. | 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ | 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within | reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 | lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors | sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn | up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a | reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. | > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in | the archives | Thanks. That's what I'd heard. | > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to | brand, | > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice | if | > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs | pressure. | Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? That's why I was asking if anyone had charts to share. I'd need to see more to be able to compare them to make any recommendations. The way I see it, for really hi HP applications, use like an oem size injector, and use some others for when the HP goes crazy, and/or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator (thou, not for you). | - Clay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 17:33:55 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:33:55 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:33:55 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 105-160 #/Hr Low Impedance P&H Port Injectors Clay, Large injectors, on a BBC engine, are not quite as problematic as they are often made to sound. Lots of wive's tales, but you can ignore most of them, if you take the right precautions............. First, assuming that you intend port injection for your BBC project and that your BBC is to be artificially aspirated, your 105 #/Hr injector benchmark tells me that you are expecting roughly 1100'ish max HP on gasoline? If this is not the case, then please clearly state your assumptions and/or intended fuel. You will find that large'ish port style fuel injectors (typically beyond 50-70 #/Hr) are all of the low impedance variety regardless of manufacturerer, meaning that they are typically less than 4 ohms impedance each and that they will require an individual peak & hold current driver (typically 4/1 amp) for proper dynamic operation. This is pretty much a universal statement, no matter whether you examine large injectors from Bosch, Siemens, Rochester, etc. "Low Impedance" and "Peak & Hold" really describe the same end result, and are meant to denote that the injectors must be individually switched via a current controlled driver as opposed to the more common (cheaper) saturated voltage switch driver. The combination of an ECU current driver, together with the electromagnetics built into a typical low impedance injector/coil assembly, attempts to drive the injector harder & faster than normal in order to effectively extend both the low and high pulse width flow response of the injector. The result is a "wider" dynamic performance envelope for the injector(s). This translates into both a superior idle and more effective top-end liquid flow (relatively speaking). The DIY & GMECM archives contain a lot of interesting reading on this topic, if you seek more knowledge. When you contemplate the injector flow ranges that you have described, there are really only two manufacturers to consider 1) Rochester '96s [aka MSD, Holley, and others], and of course 2) Bosch '160s. Personally, I would select the Bosch injectors for the following reasons: quality, cost, spray pattern, linearity, heat tolerance, batch tolerance, and availability. Remember, that the Bosch injectors (in particular the 160's that you have mentioned) have been, and still are, the mainstay of racing venues from Indy down to NHRA & IHRA and even weekend bracketeers. By virtue of production volumes, and popularity, the Bosch 160's are far more prevalent and sometimes more cost effective. The Rochester 96's are slightly more difficult to source, and are not as precise. Kinsler, and others, can feed your cravings for either flavour of injector. A bunch of Pro & Otherwise racers around here use the Bosch 160's, and are able to produce clean/stable/reasonable idles with a variety of ECU hardware and software packages. The trick is to control each of the large injectors via its own P&H driver and to use ECU software that intentionally encompasses wide dynamic injector ranges and firing schemes. You should personally discuss your injector thoughts with Electromotive, in order to determine the best software control strategy and selection (kinda surprised they did not want to sell you an injector set to match your application at the time of sale???). If you are interested, I can forward you photo images of both the Bosch '160 and the Rochester '96 injector spray patterns as photographed on my flow bench, during rated psig operation. As you will note, each is different and satisfies differing needs in terms of desired injector targeting and wall wetting parameters. In theory for multiport operation, you want to target the injector spray directly toward the backside of the intake valve face from 3-4 inches distance away. However, the physical dimensions of a BBC make this difficult/impossible. Practical theory reveals that if a person can somewhat incline the injector spray plume into the cylinder head runner tract, then the resultant distribution and effect should be okay. Good luck with your project, and remember that many of the injector and/or ECU companies often have "1-800" numbers. Don't feel bad about asking them a zillion questions. It's their dime.............. Walt. >Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:32:07 -0800 (PST) >From: Anthony Buccellato >Subject: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors > >It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM >requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe >these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold, >or saturated style injectors? > >I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What >I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors. >I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width, >relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this? > >Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold >at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be >aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible? > >Are there any injector mfg's that do a better job than others at >atomisation? I've located 160 lb/hr units, but would prefer to get closer >to my actual requirements, so as not to compromise idle too badly. > >- - Clay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 17:42:12 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:42:12 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:42:12 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors >Is this a boat or car?. >If a car I'd really think about staged injectors. That way use you 80 for >HO, and add a set of 30s for idle cruise. > >| 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ >| 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within >| reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 >| lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors >| sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn >| up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a >| reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. > >| > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in >| the archives >| Thanks. That's what I'd heard. >| > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to >| brand, >| > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice >| if >| > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs >| pressure. >| Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? > >That's why I was asking if anyone had charts to share. I'd need to see more >to be able to compare them to make any recommendations. > The way I see it, for really hi HP applications, use like an oem size >injector, and use some others for when the HP goes crazy, and/or a rising >rate fuel pressure regulator (thou, not for you). > And--furthermore--ditch the Electromotive, and check out Autronics. There is a link to them on www.turbofast.com.au (Ray Hall). LOTS of the Autronics ecu's on engines like what you have, and they are MUCH better suited for doing what you will need to keep the thing together. Richard Lee, Lee Performance, in Lake Elsinore, CA also does lots of this sort of stuff, at least for boats. He deals the Autronics, but I doubt if for the best deal. Greg >| - Clay > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 17:45:18 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:45:18 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:45:18 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors >----- Original Message ----- >From: Anthony Buccellato >To: >Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 11:55 AM >Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors > > >| > You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. >| > To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs >| > How big of motor is this?. >| >| 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ >| 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within >| reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 >| lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors >| sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn >| up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a >| reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. >| >| > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in >| the >| > archives >| >| Thanks. That's what I'd heard. >| >| > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to >| brand, >| > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice >| if >| > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs >| pressure. >| >| Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? >| >| - Clay MSD fuel injection injectors (blueprinted Rochesters) are purported to work the best for this sort of stuff--supposedly have better dynamic range than the big Bosch stuff. You WILL need good dynamic range. I AM with Bruce on this, staged, 1/3 primary, 2/3 secondary is the best way to go. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 18:52:04 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:52:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:52:04 -0800 From: MAILER-DAEMON@grolen.com Subject: SMTP Delivery Error An error occured while delivering this message. The error is stated below: 550 Mailbox not found: Excerpt of original message: To: shanen@grolen.com Resent-From: Shannen@grolen.com Resent-Date: 28 Jan 2000 21:49:58 EDT From: diy_efi@diy-efi.org To: shanen@grolen.com Date: 28 Jan 2000 08:45:00 EDT Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #41 DIY_EFI Digest Friday, January 28 2000 Volume 05 : Number 041 In this issue: Correcting subject when replying Re: toyota o2 Re: basic tuning Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter Tech 1 Questions RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors 727+LT1Conectr.jpg RE: alky/water inj Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #40 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:00:16 +0000 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Correcting subject when replying Hi All, Just a quick request. Those of you who are still using the Digest could you make sure you change the subject line to from eg, Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #39 To the subject you are actually replying to please. Thanx, Ade - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:39:44 -0800 From: garwillis@msn.com (Garfield Willis) Subject: Re: toyota o2 On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:51:17 -0500 Scott_Hay@toyota.com >The Toyota sensor can in fact measure a broad range of a/f ratios but so far, >there is little information we have in the US as to how it actually works. Um guys, I've had a look at the pictures of this GReedy gizmo now, Bruce pointed me to: www.suprastore.com/supra/gredairfuelK.html but have a look Scott at that sensor, and see if it's the one you've been testing. I have a Toyota WB O2 sensor (cost me nearly $300 just for the sensor! argh), and it's definitely not the same animal as this one. Look carefully at the body shape and the probe tip openings. Judging from the description, I'd have to guess this is actually a conventional 4-wire heated sensor they've attempted to pull a calibration curve for, on the rich side. If so, it's AFR accuracy is gonna be pretty sloppy. >The sensor does have 4 wires, B+ for heater, ground for heater - controlled by >ecm (pwm), afr+ which supplies +3.3v from the ecm to one side of the sensor, and >afr- which the ecm supplies +3.0v to the other side of the sensor. > >We do see a variable voltage when using a scanner tool but when you measure the >sensor itself, voltage is not moving with major shifts in afr???? The general >thought is that it monitors the amperage and the direction of current flow to >determine the afr. The scan tool voltage is a calculated # to give diagnostic >functions. Yup, you're seeing there the behavior of all current-pump style sensors; you won't see much variation in Vs because there's a feedback loop in the interface that's intentionally attempting to hold Vs at a fixed value, while the current thru the pump is varied. It's the oxygen pump current that reflects the AFR, just as you surmise. In this case, it's the same two terminals +-afr, so the voltage across them is the Vs while the current thru them is the pump current. You've gotta be right about the scanner readout as well; that's AFTER the interface's pump current is read by the ECU and converted to AFR. >Very good and incredibly accurate sensor which operates in a linear fashion to >afr. > >This will probably add more questions than it answers but it is a start. If this is the sensor GReddy is using, at $285 for the complete system, it would indeed be a miracle deal. Doubtful, tho; check out the sensor. If someone can get a look at one of these, the Toyota part number should be right on the O2 sensor's metal outer jacket. Betcha a donut it's a conventional 4-wire heated sensor. :) Gar - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 09:54:05 -0800 From: "Greg Moore" Subject: Re: basic tuning > At the FTP site > Tuning.doc > Grumpy If anyone else is looking for the file it's TuneTip1.doc It's a good start. Thanks Grumpy. Cheers, Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:32:07 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Buccellato Subject: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold, or saturated style injectors? I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors. I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width, relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this? Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible? Are there any injector mfg's that do a better job than others at atomisation? I've located 160 lb/hr units, but would prefer to get closer to my actual requirements, so as not to compromise idle too badly. - - Clay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:59:25 -0800 From: "Randall" Subject: RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter Rex Weatherford wrote : > > I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few > questions. > > What is the LM3914? It's an integrated circuit made by National Semiconductor, designed to create a bar graph display with a minimum of external components. National's data sheet is at http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3914.html . The part should be available from most full-line electronics supply houses (which leaves out Radio Shaft). > > It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that > true? Not quite. Current price is $36. See http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=4571 . > > How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values > between .100v > and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means > anything. Correct? Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically meaningless above about 0.9v. Randall - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:16:28 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter May I suggest you check the achives about O2 sensor, and EGOR so at least you have a clue about what your doing here. While you might consider it's output over .9 as useless, I say below that is about as meaningful, in general the <$100 sensors are designed to function as a switch with the on/off point at 14.7:1 Grumpy | Rex Weatherford wrote : | > I was looking at the schematic for Dave's meter and had a few | > questions. > What is the LM3914? It's an integrated circuit made by National Semiconductor, designed to | create a bar graph display with a minimum of external components. | National's data sheet is at http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM3914.html . The | part should be available from most full-line electronics supply houses | (which leaves out Radio Shaft). | > It says I can buy a meter like this from JC whitney for $20? Is that | > true? | Not quite. Current price is $36. See | http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=4571 . | > How are these used... I know that my ECM looks for values | > between .100v | > and 1.1v. And that my EGO sensor has to warm up before this means | > anything. Correct? | Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the | Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically | meaningless above about 0.9v. | Randall - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:23:25 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors | It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM | requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe | these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold, | or saturated style injectors? You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs How big of motor is this?. | I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What | I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors. | I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width, | relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this? Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in the archives | Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold | at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be | aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible? | | Are there any injector mfg's that do a better job than others at | atomisation? Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to brand, and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice if some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs pressure. I've located 160 lb/hr units, but would prefer to get closer | to my actual requirements, so as not to compromise idle too badly. 105-160?. BZZZZZTTTT, assuming you initial calilation is right the other is way off. Grumpy | | - Clay | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:26:53 -0800 (PST) From: Orin Subject: Re: J.C. Whitney AFR meter > Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the > Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically > meaningless above about 0.9v. LM3914 doesn't need to do 0 to 1.2V, it's easy enough to set scale and limits using a couple of resistors per LM3914. I use two LM3914s and set the first to do 0 to 0.5 V and the second 0.5 to 1V, using just one of the 1.2V references. Orin. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:49:40 +1100 From: Richard Wakeling Subject: Tech 1 Questions Hi all, I am looking closer at the old "Tech 1" scan tool and have a few questions. 1) When "Tech 1" is connected to a VR commodore V8 is the cable that is used between "Tech 1" and ALDL the same cable (part number TA01299) that is used on the VN commodore but with an adaptor to suit the OBDII syle plug on the VR or do they use a different cable? 2) If a different cable is used for the VR commodore can someone give me the connections between the 15 pin D connector on the "Tech 1" and the 16 pin OBDII style plug. 3) Has anybody tried to reconstruct the circuit of the "Tech 1" or knows which pin of the 15 D pin plug uses the 8192 Data? 4) Does the "Tech 1" scan tool have various models depending on which country they are used in or is it just the Moduals for each vehicle that are different? The model of the "Tech 1" I am looking at here in Australia is 94-012 Thanks in advance Cheers Richard. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:19:25 -0700 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: J.C. Whitney AFR meter > >Basically. The LM3914 uses 1.2v as the reference (full scale), I assume the >Whitney meter does the same. I believe the EGO sensor output is basically >meaningless above about 0.9v. > It is also basically meaningless if you are more than about 0.4 A/F ratio away from stoich! Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:27:26 -0700 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. Saturated injectors >It's finally time to buy the injectors. Horsepower, boost, and RPM >requirements (plus a bit of overhead) dictate 105 lbs/hr units. I believe >these will be low impedance units. Does this correlate to peak and hold, >or saturated style injectors? > >I'm using an electromotive driver, so low impedance isn't a problem. What >I'm primarily concerned with is idle quality with the large injectors. >I've heard that saturated style have a longer minimum pulse width, >relative to peak and hold style. Anyone have info on this? > >Also, what is the best angle to weld the injector bosses into the manifold >at? Within the mechanical limitations of a Chevy big block, should I be >aiming as close to the back of the valve as possible? > >Are there ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 18:54:09 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:54:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:54:09 -0800 From: "Simon Bosworth" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: GM 4-pin module connections? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF69D1.CFBA2EF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM 4-pin HEI ignition module connect = to coil and which to the trigger? =20 Thanks, Simon ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF69D1.CFBA2EF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM = 4-pin HEI=20 ignition module connect to coil and which to the trigger?  =
 
Thanks,
Simon
 
------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF69D1.CFBA2EF0-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Fri Jan 28 20:17:11 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:17:11 -0800 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:17:11 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GM 4-pin module connections? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BF69E6.D4E909E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The large 2 on the one side are power, and coil ground, the two = smaller pins are for the pick up Grumpy Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM 4-pin HEI ignition module = connect to coil and which to the trigger? =20 Thanks, Simon ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BF69E6.D4E909E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The large 2 on the one side are power, = and coil=20 ground, the two smaller pins are for the pick up Grumpy

Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM = 4-pin HEI=20 ignition module connect to coil and which to the trigger?  =
 
Thanks,
Simon
 
------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BF69E6.D4E909E0-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 00:17:59 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:17:59 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:17:59 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: Lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Hi, Maybe some of us have forgotten our math??? 160lb x 8 cyl / .5 bsfc = 2560HP....so lets forget about math and try some real world...I have programmed an Autronics box with 8, 96 lb injectors twin turbo's water/air intercooler and ran out of injector at 1639HP at 13.1:1 AFR at 5500 rpm so I'm a little lost on why you need bigger than the 80's to make 1000hp unless you are planning on something I'm unaware of...This was gasoline...were you planning on Alcohol???? BTW the Autronics is a great box with great software, the only thing it could use is some better AE stuff....Lost in Wonderland?????? -Carl Summers - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | > You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. | > To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs | > How big of motor is this?. | | 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ | 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within | reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 | lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors | sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn | up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a | reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. | | > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in | the | > archives | | Thanks. That's what I'd heard. | | > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to | brand, | > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice | if | > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs | pressure. | | Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? | | - Clay | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:09:10 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors Is this a boat or car?. If a car I'd really think about staged injectors. That way use you 80 for HO, and add a set of 30s for idle cruise. | 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ | 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within | reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 | lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors | sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn | up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a | reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. | > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in | the archives | Thanks. That's what I'd heard. | > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to | brand, | > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice | if | > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs | pressure. | Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? That's why I was asking if anyone had charts to share. I'd need to see more to be able to compare them to make any recommendations. The way I see it, for really hi HP applications, use like an oem size injector, and use some others for when the HP goes crazy, and/or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator (thou, not for you). | - Clay - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:33:11 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: 105-160 #/Hr Low Impedance P&H Port Injectors Clay, Large injectors, on a BBC engine, are not quite as problematic as they are often made to sound. Lots of wive's tales, but you can ignore most of them, if you take the right precautions............. First, assuming that you intend port injection for your BBC project and that your BBC is to be artificially aspirated, your 105 #/Hr injector benchmark tells me that you are expecting roughly 1100'ish max HP on gasoline? If this is not the case, then please clearly state your assumptions and/or intended fuel. You will find that large'ish port style fuel injectors (typically beyond 50-70 #/Hr) are all of the low impedance variety regardless of manufacturerer, meaning that they are typically less than 4 ohms impedance each and that they will require an individual peak & hold current driver (typically 4/1 amp) for proper dynamic operation. This is pretty much a universal statement, no matter whether you examine large injectors from Bosch, Siemens, Rochester, etc. "Low Impedance" and "Peak & Hold" really describe the same end result, and are meant to denote that the injectors must be individually switched via a current controlled driver as opposed to the more common (cheaper) saturated voltage switch driver. The combination of an ECU current driver, together with the electromagnetics built into a typical low impedance injector/coil assembly, attempts to drive the injector harder & faster than normal in order to effectively extend both the low and high pulse width flow response of the injector. The result is a "wider" dynamic performance envelope for the injector(s). This translates into both a superior idle and more effective top-end liquid flow (relatively speaking). The DIY & GMECM archives contain a lot of interesting reading on this topic, if you seek more knowledge. When you contemplate the injector flow ranges that you have described, there are really only two manufacturers to consider 1) Rochester '96s [aka MSD, Holley, and others], and of course 2) Bosch '160s. Personally, I would select the Bosch injectors for the following reasons: quality, cost, spray pattern, linearity, heat tolerance, batch tolerance, and availability. Remember, that the Bosch injectors (in particular the 160's that you have mentioned) have been, and still are, the mainstay of racing venues from Indy down to NHRA & IHRA and even weekend bracketeers. By virtue of production volumes, and popularity, the Bosch 160's are far more prevalent and sometimes more cost effective. The Rochester 96's are slightly more difficult to source, and are not as precise. Kinsler, and others, can feed your cravings for either flavour of injector. A bunch of Pro & Otherwise racers around here use the Bosch 160's, and are able to produce clean/stable/reasonable idles with a variety of ECU hardware and software packages. The trick is to control each of the large injectors via its own P&H driver and to use ECU software that intentionally encompasses wide dynamic injector ranges and firing schemes. You should personally discuss your injector thoughts with Electromotive, in order to determine the best software control strategy and selection (kinda surprised they did not want to sell you an injector set to match your application at the time of sale???). If you are interested, I can forward you photo images of both the Bosch '160 and the Rochester '96 injector spray patterns as photographed on my flow bench, during rated psig operation. As you will note, each is different and satisfies differing needs in terms of desired injector targeting and wall wetting parameters. In theory for multiport operation, you want to target the injector spray directly toward the backside of the intake valve face from 3-4 inches distance away. However, the physical dimensions of a BBC make this difficult/impossible. Practical theory reveals that if a person can somewhat incline the injector spray plume into the cylinder head runner tract, then the resultant distribution and effect should be okay. Good luck with your project, and remember that many of the injector and/or ECU companies often have "1-800" numbers. Don't feel bad about asking them a zillion questions. It's their dime.............. Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:43:32 -0700 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors >Is this a boat or car?. >If a car I'd really think about staged injectors. That way use you 80 for >HO, and add a set of 30s for idle cruise. > >| 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ >| 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within >| reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 >| lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors >| sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn >| up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a >| reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. > >| > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in >| the archives >| Thanks. That's what I'd heard. >| > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to >| brand, >| > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice >| if >| > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs >| pressure. >| Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? > >That's why I was asking if anyone had charts to share. I'd need to see more >to be able to compare them to make any recommendations. > The way I see it, for really hi HP applications, use like an oem size >injector, and use some others for when the HP goes crazy, and/or a rising >rate fuel pressure regulator (thou, not for you). > And--furthermore--ditch the Electromotive, and check out Autronics. There is a link to them on www.turbofast.com.au (Ray Hall). LOTS of the Autronics ecu's on engines like what you have, and they are MUCH better suited for doing what you will need to keep the thing together. Richard Lee, Lee Performance, in Lake Elsinore, CA also does lots of this sort of stuff, at least for boats. He deals the Autronics, but I doubt if for the best deal. Greg >| - Clay > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Anthony Buccellato >To: >Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 11:55 AM >Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors > > >| > You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. >| > To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs >| > How big of motor is this?. >| >| 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ >| 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within >| reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 >| lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors >| sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn >| up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a >| reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. >| >| > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in >| the >| > archives >| >| Thanks. That's what I'd heard. >| >| > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to >| brand, >| > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice >| if >| > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs >| pressure. >| >| Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? >| >| - Clay MSD fuel injection injectors (blueprinted Rochesters) are purported to work the best for this sort of stuff--supposedly have better dynamic range than the big Bosch stuff. You WILL need good dynamic range. I AM with Bruce on this, staged, 1/3 primary, 2/3 secondary is the best way to go. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 03:59:37 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:59:37 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:59:37 -0800 From: Frederic Breitwieser MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Non-Cam Valves Hey Carl, > Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've > got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. Its been tried, somewhat unsuccessfully. The problem is as with all magnetics devices, is speed. Injectors don't do so well at 10K RPM, so a coil that moves a valve at the same engine speed would choke, unless the coils are huge. The problem is the mass of the valve - takes tremendous force to make it move and change direction abruptly. Pneumatics on the other hand, can be used, but its very complex to setup. I believe, maybe incorrectly, several F1 cars tried this over the years. Bruce's suggestion of combing the patent database is probably your best start. If one were to eliminate the steel valves, and use ceramics or composites to make the valve, and have a metal insert in the top of the shaft, the much lower mass would be easier to move for the valving events. Not sure if it would be light enough still, but its a start. Feel free to patent the idea :) -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology 769 Sylvan Ave #9 Bridgeport CT 06606 Tele: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 04:01:02 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:01:02 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:01:02 -0800 From: "Espen Hilde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 105-160 #/Hr Low Impedance P&H Port Injectors Hi! I tought the latest ting was to use high pressure injectors in racing? Kei Hin or something.... Espen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 04:04:38 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:04:38 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 04:04:38 -0800 From: "Espen Hilde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors Hi! Why not use the DIY aproch? Open up the bosch injector and grind the shim for longer pintle stroke and flow. Espen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 07:54:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:54:13 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:54:13 -0800 From: "Robert W. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GM 4-pin module connections? > The large 2 on the one side are power, and coil ground, the two = > smaller pins are for the pick up Grumpy > > > Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM 4-pin HEI ignition module = > connect to coil and which to the trigger? =20 And don't forget, the case goes to ground -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 08:01:41 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:01:41 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:01:41 -0800 From: "Robert W. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves The exhaust valve is also a special problem. The pressure in the cylinder when the exhaust valve needs to open is in the area of 300-1500psi. A dinky 1.5in exhaust valve has a surface area of 1.75 sq in so even at 300 psi you need a minimum of 523 pounds force to open the valve. Bigger valves and earlier opening just make it worse. -- Robert W. Hughes (Bob) BackYard Engineering 29:40.237N, 95:28.726W Houston, Texas rwhughe@ev1.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 08:15:19 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:15:19 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:15:19 -0800 From: Shannen Durphey MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Apologies.... I forwarded the digest to myself, and misspelled my own name. Primitive isp software bounced it back to the list. Sorry to subject everyone to the reruns. Shannen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 08:29:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:29:32 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:29:32 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves >The exhaust valve is also a special problem. The pressure in the >cylinder when the exhaust valve needs to open is in the area of >300-1500psi. A dinky 1.5in exhaust valve has a surface area of 1.75 sq >in so even at 300 psi you need a minimum of 523 pounds force to open the >valve. Bigger valves and earlier opening just make it worse. Good concept Bob, but pretty high with the pressure numbers. Residual pressurein the cylinders ranges from 50--90 psi at the EO event in an NA engine, depending on expansion ratio and cam timing. Proportionally higher in a boosted motor. Regards, Greg >-- >Robert W. Hughes (Bob) >BackYard Engineering >29:40.237N, 95:28.726W >Houston, Texas >rwhughe@ev1.net >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 11:19:57 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:19:57 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 11:19:57 -0800 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: Electro-magnetic valves At 16:51 28/01/00 +0200, Carlo Putter wrote: >Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've >got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. > >Here is my idea: >Used normal valves with light springs. The valves can be closed and opened >by electro-magnetic coils on it. This would then give the option to the >engine tuner to design a infinitely variable camshaft! But this would only >be day-dreaming until any-body tries it. I haven't got any metal work tools, >but have some power-electronics experience. > >The internal combustion engine, as we know it was develop about a century >ago, so why can't it be changed? > >Any ideas, maybe I am way off track. It is a great Idea... It could be fun... std cam at idle then open it up to give you a 10K revs limit :-) Problem is that valves are reletivly heavy and the times involved VERY small... Have done some maths yet? Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 16:18:19 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:18:19 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:18:19 -0800 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Electro valves As stated, the acceleration vs valve mass is the fundamental limitation. But as an alternative to the simple open/shut solenoid strategy (as long as we are wishing), why not servo-valves? Servo-valves under ECU control would allow control over every aspect of the intake and exhaust function. Control of not just valve timing, rate, and duration, but lift as well. Implement any camshaft 'grind' by manipulating valve opening characteristics. No camshaft, drive, followers, lifters. The throttle would not be needed. For idle just open valves minimally to admit enough mixture, for WOT use whatever gives best VE for that combination of RPM, temp, load, etc. Could allow very flexible engine management for economy by shutting down cylinders not needed (remember the Caddy V-4-6-8), perhaps rotating the working power cycles amongst them. Obvious benefits include power, rev limits, fuel economy, emissions. The F1 teams are/were reportedly using very high pressure nitrogen gas (from an on-board storage tank) to actuate the valves. This eliminates springs, keepers, followers, etc. A servo-valve system could be implemented that uses solenoids to control the high pressure nitrogen gas. Cannot visualize this system for street use. But perhaps high pressure hydraulic technology could replace the nitrogen gas for < 8,000 RPM use. You can get 2,000 PSI hardware anywhere. I tried some trial calculations to confirm that it was not flatly impossible, but do not know enough hydraulic theory or practice to get meaningful results of max acceleration, rate, sizing, etc. Just another job for our trusty ECU's to handle. But how would you implement a 'limp-home' strategy? Lot's of eggs in one very complicated basket. Thoughts anyone? Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 16:34:32 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:34:32 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:34:32 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Electro valves | The F1 teams are/were reportedly using very high | pressure nitrogen gas (from an on-board storage tank) | to actuate the valves. This eliminates springs, | keepers, followers, etc. I've heard they still use valve springs, but only to hold things together when the engine isn't running. The oil splash is enough to "seal" the cam follower buckets. There is a fixed volume of gas (assuming no leakage) but the follow of gas has to be almost instantaneous, from area to area (way hydralics won't work on even low rpm engines). | | A servo-valve system could be implemented that uses | solenoids to control the high pressure nitrogen gas. If you mean to totally eliminate the cam?. Would take a Cray to do that, and solenoids from the dilithuim chamber. | Cannot visualize this system for street use. But | perhaps high pressure hydraulic technology could | replace the nitrogen gas for < 8,000 RPM use. You can | get 2,000 PSI hardware anywhere. I tried some trial | calculations to confirm that it was not flatly | impossible, but do not know enough hydraulic theory or | practice to get meaningful results of max | acceleration, rate, sizing, etc. | Just another job for our trusty ECU's to handle. But | how would you implement a 'limp-home' strategy? Lot's | of eggs in one very complicated basket. | Thoughts anyone? I remember when baskets, just one day a year, had eggs in them. Those were the days Grumpy | | Carter | | __________________________________________________ | Do You Yahoo!? | Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. | http://im.yahoo.com | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sat Jan 29 16:44:43 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:44:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:44:43 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Electro valves >The F1 teams are/were reportedly using very high >pressure nitrogen gas (from an on-board storage tank) >to actuate the valves. This eliminates springs, >keepers, followers, etc. > The F 1 engines are using high pressure gas in place of valve springs, that is all. Your theory is fine, the practice would be problematic! As I said the other day, you are looking at at least 500 g's of valve acceleration. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 03:16:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:16:53 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 03:16:53 -0800 From: "Paul Smith" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: boost controller project I Have had a look around, and have seen a lot of stuff about boost controllers but have not been able to find a kit (diy) out there..:< Does anyone have or know of a project kit or circuit diagram of a boost controller??? thanks Paul ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 06:36:46 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:36:46 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:36:46 -0800 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves At 10:00 29/01/00 -0600, Robert W. Hughes wrote: >The exhaust valve is also a special problem. The pressure in the >cylinder when the exhaust valve needs to open is in the area of >300-1500psi. A dinky 1.5in exhaust valve has a surface area of 1.75 sq >in so even at 300 psi you need a minimum of 523 pounds force to open the >valve. Bigger valves and earlier opening just make it worse. 1.5inch, dinky??? I have 1.4" inlets and 1.22" exhaust valves!!! These are considered big for a mini!! BTW It is a 1330 Normally aspirated A series engine putting out about 105bhp at 7krpm.. Gives me about 165bhp/tonne (the metric one) and gets me to 60mph in about 7 or 8secs Who needs a V8 :-) Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 06:36:48 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:36:48 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:36:48 -0800 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves At 06:58 29/01/00 -0500, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: >Hey Carl, > >> Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've >> got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. > >Its been tried, somewhat unsuccessfully. The problem is as with all >magnetics devices, is speed. Injectors don't do so well at 10K RPM, so >a coil that moves a valve at the same engine speed would choke, unless >the coils are huge. > >The problem is the mass of the valve - takes tremendous force to make it >move and change direction abruptly. Pneumatics on the other hand, can >be used, but its very complex to setup. I believe, maybe incorrectly, >several F1 cars tried this over the years. So what do F1 use at the moment then? Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 06:50:09 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:50:09 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:50:09 -0800 From: "Bruce Plecan" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves 7 or 8 secs., am or pm. Each cylinder in our tractor equals your total displacement, yep, dinky. Grumpy | 1.5inch, dinky??? I have 1.4" inlets and 1.22" exhaust valves!!! These are | considered big for a mini!! | BTW It is a 1330 Normally aspirated A series engine putting out about | 105bhp at 7krpm.. Gives me about 165bhp/tonne (the metric one) and gets me | to 60mph in about 7 or 8secs | Who needs a V8 :-) | Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 06:55:27 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:55:27 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:55:27 -0800 From: Adrian Broughton MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: boost controller project/Introduction > I Have had a look around, and have seen a lot of stuff about boost > controllers but have not been able to find a kit (diy) out there..:< > > Does anyone have or know of a project kit or circuit diagram of a boost > controller??? Hi Paul & Everyone Firstly, let me introduce myself. I've been subscribed to this list for a couple of months but have mainly just lurked. I'm no EFI guru, I'm not even a mechanical guru... but I do write software for a living and am interested in developing stuff like data-loggers and so on for my 1990 Toyota Celica GT-Four (called Alltrac in the US - 2.0l Turbo 4WD). Now, getting onto the boost controller instructions... Here are a few links to sites with boost controller instructions on them, my own site included. I have recently redesigned my own controller using a variable relief valve rather than a needle valve, with very good results. Instructions for this revised design will be on my site soon-ish.. Anyway, here are some addresses: http://web.one.net.au/~gtfour/ - This is my own site - go to the "Modifications" section, then scroll down to "Boost Controller" and click on "Instructions". This site currently has instructions for a bleeder-type controller, and is kind of specific to the GT-Four, but also applies to any Turbo car that has a factory VSV-controller air-bleed. http://users.wantree.com.au:8080/~isracing/ - This is the site of a friend of mine, Ivan. He also has instructions for a slightly different bleeder-type solution. http://pages.cthome.net/gus/mike.html - This is a site that has diagrams for a number of different controllers, all based on using relief-valves instead of needle valves (they restrict air from going to the wastegate instead of bleeding it away). He kind of makes things a little more complicated than they actually are, but this type of valve is much better than the needle-valve/bleeder setup. Oh, another place to try is http://www.hallmanboostcontroller.com/ for info on how a relief-valve setup works. This guy is trying to sell these controllers for US$100, but don't be sucked in because you can get the same valve (minus the hoses) from McMaster-Carr for US$5.86. I ordered mine over the net and they arrived at my door in Australia in less than a week! That should be enough to get you started... good luck! -Adrian ___________________________________ Adrian Broughton 1990 GT-Four Celica ST185 (15psi), 1974 VW Kombi, 1967 Holden HR Fremantle, Western Australia gtfour@one.net.au http://one.net.au/~gtfour/ ___________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 06:56:28 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:56:28 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 06:56:28 -0800 From: ECMnut@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves In a message dated 1/30/00 9:53:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, nacelp@bright.net writes: > 7 or 8 secs., am or pm. Is this one of those "depends on how close the sun youe are" formulas? Let's turbo the mini ! MV ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 08:06:02 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:06:02 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:06:02 -0800 From: Bill Shaw MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves I heard a rumor about a GM project (Aurora?) using hydraulic valves (maybe on GMECM?) . Rumor was they could start it without a starter; open all the valves, squirt into one cyl near the top, close it's valves, and pop it over! Anyone know any more about it? Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 08:40:19 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:40:19 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 08:40:19 -0800 From: "Charles A. Fair" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: boost controller project/Introduction Hello to all DIYers out there. This might be a good time for me to introduce myself also. I am also new to this list. My interest is in modifying and developing items for my 90 Eagle Talon TSi AWD, which has the 2.0 4g63 turbo engine and my 88 Conquest TSi, G54B turbo 2.6. I also am not an EFI guru or mechanical guru, just love working with my cars and learning more about them. I came to this list because I am working on an idea for a variable relief valve boost controller. I own a Hallman controller, which I bought back in 96. Yes it is expensive, slap me dammit, I didn't know any better! Anyway, this style of boost controller seems to be able to mechanically overcome some of the problems of the common bleeder valve style boost controllers. Boost pressure is blocked from the wastegate controller's diaphragm until pressure overcomes a spring loaded ball bearing. The result is very fast spool time and a rock solid pressure level at WOT. David Buschur's RWD Talon did something like a 9.4 second 1/4th mile pass using a Hallman valve, which he sells. My problem with this valve is actually not really a problem with its performance, but with adjusting it. To make fast spool time the vacume lines must be short. This means engine bay mounting. If you run the lines to the cockpit to be able to adjust it while driving you cause boost spike and lag, defeating the advantages of a variable relief valve over a simple needle bleeder. My solution is to use a motor to control the Bolt which is placing pressure on the ball bearing. This is very simple in operation. In my Eagle Talon, you actually could take a motor out of the remote controlled mirrors and mount it with some sort of simple bracket to the valve. It takes app. 45 degrees to adjust the valve 1 psi. It is not linear though. This remote controlled mirror motor could be adjusted with the control for the mirror, without any further modification, very simple. This wouldn't cost you a dime if you already had the valve. Oh, the Hallman is different from the variable relief valve sold McMaster-Carr or Grangers. If you buy the Grangers/Mcmaster valve the only similarity is its a variable relief valve. The Hallman uses a different way to adjust pressure on the spring and uses a bleed hole to limit boost spike, but the principles are the same, nothing magic. The part numbers are on Dempsey's page also: http://www.xmission.com/~dempsey/perform/grainger.htm There are also some other boost controller projects there. This guy has a pretty good variable relief valve boost controller setup if you would like to buy one, very good workmanship. It uses solenoid to give some interesting settings for his 2 to 3 valve controller as an option. http://users.erinet.com/40666/DSM-MBC.htm I am working on a stand-alone controller for the valve. This should be interesting to see what comes of this. There is not a commercially available boost controller that uses a relief valve. Ill offer my controller for the valve to anybody who wants to buy it if it actually works... I can't wait to finally get my parts. Chuck Fair ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 09:04:07 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:04:07 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:04:07 -0800 From: "crash70" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Camless Cylinder Head >At 16:51 28/01/00 +0200, Carlo Putter wrote: >>Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've >>got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. >> >>Here is my idea: >>Used normal valves with light springs. The valves can be closed and opened >>by electro-magnetic coils on it. This would then give the option to the >>engine tuner to design a infinitely variable camshaft! But this would only >>be day-dreaming until any-body tries it. I haven't got any metal work tools, >>but have some power-electronics experience. I know that BMW has built such a machine. I can't remember where I saw it, but it had a MASSIVE alternator integrated into the flywheel to power the coils. From what I remember, it DID work, but it was astronomically expensive, and heavy. The pressure on the valves from combustion chamber pressure can be (somewhat) alleviated by using multivalve technology. Audi's 5 valve head is a perfect candidate. You could even have the intake valves open in patterns to promote swirl, or have only one or two open at cruising speeds. Sounds cool to me! crash ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 09:25:44 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:25:44 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:25:44 -0800 From: "Charles A. Fair" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Alternative to O2 injection, EGR? (Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #34) Hunt David wrote: > > Since the spend gas is added after the throttle plate the total gas in the > combustion chamber is increased as compared to no recirculation. Thus the > "dynamic" pressure (effective compression ratio) is increased. At part > throttle the chamber certainly doesn't fill due to the restriction of the > throttle and the dynamic compression ratio is quite small, so even a small > amount of recirculated gas increases the dynamic compression ratio. It also > increases the preignition temperature (promoting better vaporization > (mixing)), and provides a (relatively) cooling effect for pockets of > "leanness" reducing the possiblity of detonation. REDUCING. > > That "leanness" might be caused by fuel dropout which means that the oxygen > rich, low fuel (lean) areas will also have a lot of recirculation gasses. > Win - Win - Win - Win situation, quite ingenous actually. > My question is, can EGR be used as a substitute to O2 injection for knock suppression? My mechanic friend warned me about O2 injection, that it will tend to remove the oil from the cylinder walls and on the valve stems. Supposedly it will cause rapid engine wear, i.e. cylinder taper and stem wear. My application for the use of EGR for knock suppression is with my turbo engine. The 4G63 turbo can put out over 450 hp without opening up the engine, only bolt on parts. 3200lb cars have gone 11.4 sec 1/4th mile runs with 40,000 miles on them and over 400 1/4th mile passes, without ever having had the head removed. This is attainable in a STREETABLE car, capable of 28 mpg on the highway. Oh, you'll break stuff, like driveline parts, other than the engine when dragging:) The engine is a 2 liter 4 cylinder dohc 4 valve per cylinder utilizing additional oil jets under the pistons in turbo form. In stock form they put out 97.6 hp per liter or 1.63 hp per cubic inch. In modified form that's 225 hp per liter or 3.78 hp per cu.in. from my earlier example... If built up, one on a chassie dyno put out 600 hp, 300 / liter, 5 per cu. in. The reason I have illustrated this is in an engine with high volumetric efficiency and working on the fringe of performance, I believe might benefit from using EGR when under boost or/detonation might allow higher boost pressures to be obtained without race gas. For instance the limit with a stock turbo is 18 on a 1st gen. DSM with an upgraded fuel pump running 93 octane pump gas. Yes, I am aware boost pressure does not equal lb. per hour of air flow, but in my example it generally works out that way, over 18 psi = melt piston/valve. I want a Win - Win situation with detonation suppression. Water injection does cause suppression, but kills hp. Can EGR help under high boost conditions to prevent detonation, and not cause a loss of HP, or would it just cause higher EGT, reducing thermal efficiency, in the process killing HP. The proverbial throwing the baby out with the bath water. Chuck Fair. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 10:30:48 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:30:48 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:30:48 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Alternative to O2 injection, EGR? (Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #34) >Hunt David wrote: > >> >> Since the spend gas is added after the throttle plate the total gas in the >> combustion chamber is increased as compared to no recirculation. Thus the >> "dynamic" pressure (effective compression ratio) is increased. At part >> throttle the chamber certainly doesn't fill due to the restriction of the >> throttle and the dynamic compression ratio is quite small, so even a small >> amount of recirculated gas increases the dynamic compression ratio. It also >> increases the preignition temperature (promoting better vaporization >> (mixing)), and provides a (relatively) cooling effect for pockets of >> "leanness" reducing the possiblity of detonation. REDUCING. First of all, EGR does _NOT_ affect either static or effective compression ratio OR expansion ratio. It provides a diluent to the combustion gasses--which effective lowers peak combustion temperatures, thus lowering NOX formation during combustion. Also--lowering theoretical cycle efficiency to some extent. (Mr. Carnot strikes again!) EGR, at part throttle, because it is a diluent, reduces intake vacuum downstream of the throttle without any increase in power output, and thus reduces part throttle pumping losses. This can constitute a net gain in efficiency _ONLY_ at part throttle, despite the loss in cycle efficiency--BUT--usually can only do so _IF _the timing is compensated (advance further, back to optimum when the EGR is on) for the fact that the EGR diluent slows down the rate of flame travel. Net effect of EGR at part throttle is probably to reduce detonation at part throttle--with slower burn, higher chamber pressure and temp and more advance being bad factors, charge dilution, more chamber turbulence (due to the denser charge) and a chemical effect on the combustion process being good factors. Use of an EGR cooler would be a plus all around, in any case. > >My question is, can EGR be used as a substitute to O2 injection for knock >suppression? My mechanic friend warned me about O2 injection, that it >will tend >to remove the oil from the cylinder walls and on the valve stems. >Supposedly it >will cause rapid engine wear, i.e. cylinder taper and stem wear. > >I want a Win - Win situation with detonation suppression. You will not be able get a win-win situation with EGR at WOT. Diluting the charge _WILL_ effectively reduce booth VE and cycle efficiency. Particularly without an EGR cooler, I doubt that you could ever see a net gain--I doubt that the detonation suppression effect of the EGR gas could ever be enough to offset the loss in VE, even if you compensate for the loss in VE artificially by increasing boost. Water injection does >cause suppression, but kills hp. > >Can EGR help under high boost conditions to prevent detonation, and not cause a >loss of HP, or would it just cause higher EGT, reducing thermal efficiency, in >the process killing HP. The proverbial throwing the baby out with the bath >water. > My opinion is that you mechanic has it about half right. Poorly atomized injected water can scour oil off of parts--the cavitation that happens when a droplet of water lands on a part, and then boils off of it can easily do this. With well atomized water injection, this problem is substantially cured. (Poorly atomized fuel will wash oil off of parts even worse than water, as the oil is SOLUBLE in the fuel droplets!) In this regard, one might observe that a steam cleaner works most effectively when it is set to spray a MIXTURE of water droplets and steam, not pure steam, out of its nozzle! Water that is atomized, but NOT vaporized, before the intake valve closed does NOT have any significant effect on VE, the volume of the water is simply too small to have much effect in terms of diluting the intake charge. On the other hand--crudely injected water--say sprayed on the hot spot in an intake manifold will have a HUGE effect on VE, Because of the low molecular weight of water compared to the (average) MW of air, any water vapor (steam, if you will) formed in the inlet tract before the intake valve closes will displace a substantial amount of air, thus reducing power. On a chemical basis in the chamber, water vapor is a _VERY_ powerful (perhaps the most powerful one known) detonation supressant, for a number of reasons. One of the prime ones is that water is a highly polar molecule, and as such tends to ties up the free radicals which are the immediate precursors to a detonation event. In a nutshell--my opinion is that WELL EXECUTED water injection will get you what you want with no bad mechanical side effects, and that EGR will not. Not to mention that properly done water injection can significantly improve durability by reducing temperatures throughout most of the cycle. There is a loss in Carnot cycle efficiency due to this effect, but, and again my opinion, this loss is more than compensated for by a reduction in negative work during the compression stroke _AND_ a very significant reduction in heat rejected to the water jackets (due to the lower temps). Regards, Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 11:52:00 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:52:00 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 11:52:00 -0800 From: Rich Schimmelbusch MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > Pneumatics on the other hand, can > be used, but its very complex to setup. I believe, maybe incorrectly, > several F1 cars tried this over the years. My boss owns Michael Schumacher's 1997 Ferrari F1 car. It is *way* cool and among numerous other goodies, has nitrogen-pressurized valve "springs." I don't know specifics other than they must be pressurized at all times or the valves will fall into the cylinder and the head must be removed to untangle the ensuing mess! The rev limiter has been set back to 15k from 16.5. I think this lengthens the tune-up interval . It has to go back to the "old country" for any and all work. -- Rich mailto:rschimmelbusch@.att.net coming soon http://www.RainierAviation.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 12:10:46 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:10:46 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 12:10:46 -0800 From: Laura & Neil MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: camless engine > | The F1 teams are/were reportedly using very high > | pressure nitrogen gas (from an on-board storage tank) > | to actuate the valves. This eliminates springs, > | keepers, followers, etc. > > I've heard they still use valve springs, but only to hold things together > when the engine isn't running. The oil splash is enough to "seal" the cam > follower buckets. > There is a fixed volume of gas (assuming no leakage) but the follow of gas > has to be almost instantaneous, from area to area (way hydralics won't work > on even low rpm engines). > | > | A servo-valve system could be implemented that uses > | solenoids to control the high pressure nitrogen gas. > > If you mean to totally eliminate the cam?. Would take a Cray to do that, > and solenoids from the dilithuim chamber. > > | Cannot visualize this system for street use. But > | perhaps high pressure hydraulic technology could > | replace the nitrogen gas for < 8,000 RPM use. You can > | get 2,000 PSI hardware anywhere. I tried some trial > | calculations to confirm that it was not flatly > | impossible, but do not know enough hydraulic theory or > | practice to get meaningful results of max > | acceleration, rate, sizing, etc. > | Just another job for our trusty ECU's to handle. But > | how would you implement a 'limp-home' strategy? Lot's > | of eggs in one very complicated basket. > | Thoughts anyone? > > I remember when baskets, just one day a year, had eggs in them. Those were > the days > Grumpy > | Please take it easy on me Grumpy. But how about adapting the Ford powerstroke diesel idea. A high pressure engine driven hydraulic pump, from what I remember, running at about 2000psi, being fed through computer controlled solenoids to operate the injectors. Shouldn't take too much imagination to substitute the injectors for valves. O.K, I'm well braced. Fire away Grumpy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 13:11:18 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:11:18 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:11:18 -0800 From: mark koenig MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Electro valves Carlo Putter wrote: > > Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've > got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. > My two cents worth: Aren't we missing something? If we do away with the camshaft, why not do away with the valves as we know them? How about an Iris? Or maybe some sort of sliding/rotating window? Would seem to do away with the problems of valve inertia when changing direction 180 degrees (up/down). And would reduce the problems with overcoming cylinder pressures? And then we could change port shape to something more useful. Like maybe a crescent moon shape instead of round? Or many little triangles over the whole cylinder diameter, with alternate triangles being intake and exhaust? Or maybe just one huge port in the head used by both intake and exhaust, with redirection of intake and exhaust being done OUTSIDE of the combustion chamber? Just a few off-the-wall thoughts. If we're going to re-think things, and using the old valve configuration doesn't seem to work, then let's throw out the valves, too! BitWrangler mrkkatexecpcNOHAMdotcom ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 14:06:06 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:06:06 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 14:06:06 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: camless engine >> | The F1 teams are/were reportedly using very high >> I remember when baskets, just one day a year, had eggs in them. Those were >> the days >> Grumpy >> | > >Please take it easy on me Grumpy. >But how about adapting the Ford powerstroke diesel idea. >A high pressure engine driven hydraulic pump, from what I remember, running at >about 2000psi, being fed through computer controlled solenoids to operate the >injectors. Shouldn't take too much imagination to substitute the injectors for >valves. > > >O.K, I'm well braced. Fire away Grumpy. > Just lettin' Grumpy relax-- You have pretty well defined the hydraulic system necessary to squirt about 0.06 grams of diesel fuel into a chamber in each cylinder of the Navistar V-8 26 times a second. And--remember, it only has to squirt the diesel in one direction. Now--double the frequency (suspecting that you want to do this on an engine that turns more than 3200 rpm). Then, increase the mass that you have to move by a factor of at least three thousand (for a 180 gram valve?), and last of all, actuate it in both directions. For a little extra fun, realize that no impact at the end of the stroke is acceptable. Last of all, consider the amount of work Navistar did to develop the injection system! Be kind of a fun problem, I would think! Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 15:13:21 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:13:21 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:13:21 -0800 From: "Ken Kelly" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Valves / Variable Timing Has anyone thought of just using a really beefy cam, with a controlled-bleed-rate lifter set? Pump up the pressure to run the full profile of the cam, and lower the pressure to keep the duration and lift low (for cruise?) I realize they make "fast-bleed" lifters, but I'm talking about one where you actually control the pressure in the lifter instead. Ken Kelly (#2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 15:21:06 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:21:06 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:21:06 -0800 From: "Espen Hilde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves Hi all! > My boss owns Michael Schumacher's 1997 Ferrari F1 car He hasnt any F1 cars without engine laying around??? I would love to have one for the street. Frederic how is your prodject going? Espen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 15:26:20 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:26:20 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:26:20 -0800 From: Johncarrick954@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: efi for triumph motor cycle(1969,750cc based special) I am a first year student at Uni of North London & am planning to design & build an efi system for my 1969 based 750 cc triumph M/C. the project is due at the end of my 4th year so I've got plenty of time BUT I'd like to build something 'different'. I've got a basic grasp of the systems currently being used on production motorcycles (I was a M.C. mechanic) but know nothing about cars. I'm looking for 3 main things; a) someone with a similar machine interested in pooling resources (e.g.XS650,comando,harley , etc.). b) any info on sensors other than ; barometric, heat, lambda, throttle posn.&air flow. c) if anyone has used direct head injection on a machine with an 8,000 (or vaguely similar) redline does the fuel mix properly? Many thanks(I hope) johntr7@yahoo.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 16:13:51 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:13:51 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:13:51 -0800 From: "Espen Hilde" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves Hi ! Think what we all on this list is capable of...... If we had joined our forces into one prodject we could create a very special engine. A engine for a racing class? With efi 332 offcourse. I would pick offshore 1 boats.The reacent changes in rules have made it possible for pushrod v8 s to participate without the air restrictors that the Lamborginis uses. The v8 s are not aloud to use gearboxes. There fore we need a strong engine with a large powerband to beat the Lambos.Sterling has done this before. A joined e-mail list beating the guts out of Italian v12 mulivalve beast? Showing the power of internet? My Idee how to do it is to make the engine with the camshaft that makes most top end power and not beeing conserned with a large powerband. The large powerband comes from reed valves placed in the inlet as close to the valves as possible,If it gives to much resistance we have to use other valves controlling the low pressures ,the combustion pressures is taken care of by the regular valve system. What to do on the exhaust side I dont know.....maybe a variable resistance is enough? If this is not enough we could make an extra valve in the middle of the inlet valve running its valvestem inside the valvestem of the main valve controlled by a rocker at a higher rate. Just to fill the low pressure area behind the big inlet valve at high rpm. Start brain storming guys! Espen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 17:20:45 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:20:45 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:20:45 -0800 From: "nacelp" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: efi for triumph motor cycle(1969,750cc based special) Most of what you need to know is in the archives, also, in a related site is efi 332, and that covers building your own ecm Grumpy Subject: efi for triumph motor cycle(1969,750cc based special) > I am a first year student at Uni of North London & am planning to design & > build an efi system for my 1969 based 750 cc triumph M/C. > the project is due at the end of my 4th year so I've got plenty of time BUT > I'd like to build something 'different'. > I've got a basic grasp of the systems currently being used on production > motorcycles (I was a M.C. mechanic) but know nothing about cars. > I'm looking for 3 main things; > a) someone with a similar machine > interested in pooling resources (e.g.XS650,comando,harley , etc.). > b) any info on sensors other than > ; barometric, heat, lambda, throttle posn.&air flow. > c) if anyone has used direct > head injection on a machine with an 8,000 (or vaguely similar) redline does > the fuel mix properly? > Many thanks(I hope) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 17:33:23 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:33:23 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:33:23 -0800 From: "nacelp" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: camless engine Geez, you outta see me when I get onna roll, that was humor.. You mentioned using a solenoid for valve action, that means a very specific volume of hydralic fluid in a very precise moment, Maybe Livermore or Scandia have something like that, but nothing even close for general use. Vast difference, IMHO between fuel and valve actuation. With fuel (speaking of diesels), the opening timing is the critical number, and then guantity (yes both closely related, and critical). But the mechanical pumps you mention have been refined for decades. 2000 PSI is also on the lower side, the Bosch run at 25-28K.. Grumpy Hope that was easy enough > Please take it easy on me Grumpy. > But how about adapting the Ford powerstroke diesel idea. > A high pressure engine driven hydraulic pump, from what I remember, running at > about 2000psi, being fed through computer controlled solenoids to operate the > injectors. Shouldn't take too much imagination to substitute the injectors for > valves. > > O.K, I'm well braced. Fire away Grumpy. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 19:49:29 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:49:29 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 19:49:29 -0800 From: Clint Svensrud MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 2 bar map sensor I am trying to get a 2 bar map sensor for my accel dfi anyone know which car came with a 2 bar map sensor . I got one for a GN but when I plugged it in it read an incorrect 2bar at atmoshperic pressure . ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 20:09:29 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:09:29 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:09:29 -0800 From: ECMnut@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 2 bar map sensor GM 2 bar sensors came in: 91-93 GMC Syclone & Typhoon 4.3 turbo 87-90 Pontiac Sunbird Turbo 2.0 HTH Mike V > I am trying to get a 2 bar map sensor for my accel dfi anyone know which car > came > with a 2 bar map sensor . I got one for a GN but when I plugged it in it > read an > incorrect 2bar at atmoshperic pressure . > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 20:49:24 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:49:24 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 20:49:24 -0800 From: "nacelp" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 2 bar map sensor You ordered the right part, got the wrong one. At standard baro should be at 2.5ish volts Grumpy BTW, 90-91 syclones, and typhoons had em > I am trying to get a 2 bar map sensor for my accel dfi anyone know which car came > with a 2 bar map sensor . I got one for a GN but when I plugged it in it read an > incorrect 2bar at atmoshperic pressure . > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 22:33:25 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:33:25 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:33:25 -0800 From: Ludis Langens MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 2 bar map sensor ECMnut@aol.com wrote: > > GM 2 bar sensors came in: > 87-90 Pontiac Sunbird Turbo 2.0 Plus 84-86 Sunbird (actually any J-car) turbo 1.8. -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 23:01:29 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:01:29 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:01:29 -0800 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves At 09:56 30/01/00 EST, ECMnut@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 1/30/00 9:53:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, >nacelp@bright.net writes: > >> 7 or 8 secs., am or pm. >Is this one of those "depends on how close the sun youe are" >formulas? >Let's turbo the mini ! It is enough too see off the vast majority of cars in the UK. Top end is about 110mph but that is most due to aerodynamics... It is pretty damb good for a car that was designed in the 50s!! Best of all unlike the hulking great things you guys in the states have it goes rounds corners!! :-) There was a turbo A series engine (fitted to metros and ERA mini turbos (they only make 600 ERA minis) but the gearbox falls apart with more than 100lb/ft of torque. They controlled the boost, 4 to 7.5psi to give a constant 85lb/ft of torque. If I had a spare 700ukp lying around I could make it withstand 125lb/ft of torque... This gives about 1400bhp and will do 60 in about 5.5 to 6 secs. Unfortunatly an engine built to take this sort of power would cost 2 or 3 thousand ukp. The other problem is that the gearbox would be straight cut and bloody noisy! Sorry for the off topic stuff, Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 23:01:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:01:30 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:01:30 -0800 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: Electro valves At 16:18 29/01/00 -0800, Carter Shore wrote: >Just another job for our trusty ECU's to handle. But >how would you implement a 'limp-home' strategy? Lot's >of eggs in one very complicated basket. As part of the ecconomy shutting down cylinders you could have 2 ECUs to control each half of the engine. This way if one dies you still have half an engine. :-) or you could have a second little (1 litre/80bhp for the UK 8 litre 80bhp for the US) engine that had a carb and distributer if the ECU died... Bit difficult for a mini as there is hardly enough room for one engine!! Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 23:02:42 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:02:42 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:02:42 -0800 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: Electro valves At 17:46 29/01/00 -0700, Greg Hermann wrote: > >>The F1 teams are/were reportedly using very high >>pressure nitrogen gas (from an on-board storage tank) >>to actuate the valves. This eliminates springs, >>keepers, followers, etc. >> >The F 1 engines are using high pressure gas in place of valve springs, that >is all. Suppose they reduce the pressure of the gas at lower RPMs to reduce the load (power wastage) on the valve drive train? Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Sun Jan 30 23:02:45 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:02:45 -0800 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:02:45 -0800 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: boost controller project At 22:11 30/01/00 +0800, you wrote: >I Have had a look around, and have seen a lot of stuff about boost >controllers but have not been able to find a kit (diy) out there..:< > >Does anyone have or know of a project kit or circuit diagram of a boost >controller??? No but I have another question. The Metro turbo (turbo'd British Leyland A series) It has modulated boost if anybody has any details on the workings of it I would be interested to hear about it. Thanx, Ade ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 04:39:59 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 04:39:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 04:39:59 -0800 From: Carter Shore MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves Oooh, Yes, we can eliminate the valves and spark plugs altogether! Just use a pair of on board matter transmitters (ala Star Trek), and materialize the air and fuel from the tank (in stoic proportion of course) directly into the combustion chambers. Then just fire the phasers to ignite the mixture! Of course, you'd have to replace your DieHard with dilithium crystals to power this stuff. (Sorry, my last post on this I promise :) Actually, I've wondered about all of the 'poppet valve alternatives' mentioned, and few others too. But look how long it took the Toyo-Kogyo engineers to nail down the Wankel tip seal problems. Not impossible to do these things, but takes a lot of R&D time and $$$. If someone can make one of these schemes work, my hat's off to them. Lot's of folks have succeeded where others have said 'that won't work'. But it's not easy. Carter __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 04:40:38 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 04:40:38 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 04:40:38 -0800 From: Roy MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Water Injection Hi all Have been reading a lot about water injection and how it reduces detonation. To run high boost I think water injection is the way to go, but as stated it must be in atomised form and not produce steam. So where is the best place to inject it and just one injector or one per cylinder ? Before or after the turbo ? If after the turbo would it be best before or after the fuel injectors ? from Roy (Spectric's Ltd) --- DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > > DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, January 30 2000 > Volume 05 : Number 045 > > > > In this issue: > > Re: Non-Cam Valves > Re: Non-Cam Valves > Re: Non-Cam Valves > Re: Non-Cam Valves > RE: boost controller project/Introduction > Re: Non-Cam Valves > Re: Non-Cam Valves > Re: boost controller project/Introduction > Camless Cylinder Head > Alternative to O2 injection, EGR? (Re: DIY_EFI > Digest V5 #34) > Re: Alternative to O2 injection, EGR? (Re: DIY_EFI > Digest V5 #34) > Re: Non-Cam Valves > camless engine > Re: Electro valves > Re: camless engine > Valves / Variable Timing > Re: Non-Cam Valves > efi for triumph motor cycle(1969,750cc based > special) > Re: Non-Cam Valves > Re: efi for triumph motor cycle(1969,750cc based > special) > Re: camless engine > 2 bar map sensor > Re: 2 bar map sensor > Re: 2 bar map sensor > Re: 2 bar map sensor > > See the end of the digest for information on > subscribing to the > DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:53:37 +0000 > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves > > At 06:58 29/01/00 -0500, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > >Hey Carl, > > > >> Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam > less machine. Well I've > >> got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it > already. > > > >Its been tried, somewhat unsuccessfully. The > problem is as with all > >magnetics devices, is speed. Injectors don't do so > well at 10K RPM, so > >a coil that moves a valve at the same engine speed > would choke, unless > >the coils are huge. > > > >The problem is the mass of the valve - takes > tremendous force to make it > >move and change direction abruptly. Pneumatics on > the other hand, can > >be used, but its very complex to setup. I believe, > maybe incorrectly, > >several F1 cars tried this over the years. > > So what do F1 use at the moment then? > > Ade > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:57:53 +0000 > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves > > At 10:00 29/01/00 -0600, Robert W. Hughes wrote: > >The exhaust valve is also a special problem. The > pressure in the > >cylinder when the exhaust valve needs to open is in > the area of > >300-1500psi. A dinky 1.5in exhaust valve has a > surface area of 1.75 sq > >in so even at 300 psi you need a minimum of 523 > pounds force to open the > >valve. Bigger valves and earlier opening just make > it worse. > > 1.5inch, dinky??? I have 1.4" inlets and 1.22" > exhaust valves!!! These are > considered big for a mini!! > > BTW It is a 1330 Normally aspirated A series engine > putting out about > 105bhp at 7krpm.. Gives me about 165bhp/tonne (the > metric one) and gets me > to 60mph in about 7 or 8secs > > Who needs a V8 :-) > > Ade > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:57:53 +0000 > From: Ade + Lamb Chop > Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves > > At 10:00 29/01/00 -0600, Robert W. Hughes wrote: > >The exhaust valve is also a special problem. The > pressure in the > >cylinder when the exhaust valve needs to open is in > the area of > >300-1500psi. A dinky 1.5in exhaust valve has a > surface area of 1.75 sq > >in so even at 300 psi you need a minimum of 523 > pounds force to open the > >valve. Bigger valves and earlier opening just make > it worse. > > 1.5inch, dinky??? I have 1.4" inlets and 1.22" > exhaust valves!!! These are > considered big for a mini!! > > BTW It is a 1330 Normally aspirated A series engine > putting out about > 105bhp at 7krpm.. Gives me about 165bhp/tonne (the > metric one) and gets me > to 60mph in about 7 or 8secs > > Who needs a V8 :-) > > Ade > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 09:57:29 -0500 > From: "Bruce Plecan" > Subject: Re: Non-Cam Valves > > 7 or 8 secs., am or pm. > Each cylinder in our tractor equals your total > displacement, yep, dinky. > Grumpy > > | 1.5inch, dinky??? I have 1.4" inlets and 1.22" > exhaust valves!!! These are > | considered big for a mini!! > | BTW It is a 1330 Normally aspirated A series > engine putting out about > | 105bhp at 7krpm.. Gives me about 165bhp/tonne (the > metric one) and gets me > | to 60mph in about 7 or 8secs > | Who needs a V8 :-) > | Ade > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe > diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:53:36 +0800 > From: Adrian Broughton > Subject: RE: boost controller project/Introduction > > > I Have had a look around, and have seen a lot of > stuff about boost > > controllers but have not been able to find a kit > (diy) out there..:< > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 05:08:24 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 05:08:24 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 05:08:24 -0800 From: Darren Floen MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Dual exhaust on a 4.3 Hi all,I'm almost finished my TBI 4.3 swap in my Toy.I want to run dual 2 1/4" exhaust,with Flowmaster mufflers.I'd be willing to run a single system,but in my truck it'd be kinda hard to fab a y pipe. Will the decrease in back pressure affect the O2 sensor,or will it confuse the computer in any way?I don't think it will,but it doesn't hurt to ask,eh? ;-) Thanks -- Darren Floen Thunderbay,Ontario 85 Toyota Xtra cab 4x4 5" custom YJ/Mazda lift,4.3,TH350,5.29's,Detroit rear,True-Trac front,and lotsa other stuff... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 06:26:56 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:26:56 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 06:26:56 -0800 From: Joeri de Haas MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: BMW Motronic (3.??) question ------ =_NextPart_000_01BF6BFF.789C1270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI guys, Two questions on a 1991 BMW 525i (E34) 24V (M50 engine) non Vanos : When slightly blipping the throttle of this engine, it stalls slightly = and only than it revs up. This makes pulling up quite messy (with MT). = The engine runs perfect and also has a very good idle. I checked TPS = which was ok. While messing around with the TPS connector I noticed that = the engine never displayed a check engine light. In fact there is = something called an EML light and a separate check engine light. Both = also don't light after key on. I already switched bulbs but with no = succes. Now I understand why I could not get my light to display any = diagnostics. Can anybody shed some light on these problems ? If to far of topic = please excuse me. 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Well I've > >> got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. > > For anyone interested in this subject, USPTO website or the IBM patent server is the place to look. Type in a few key words then sit back, and read about it. Forever. Too bad they only go back to the mid 1970s. For the rest, you have to go to a library. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 07:11:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:11:30 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:11:30 -0800 From: gabe MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: New Mustang Injectors Does anyone know what the lb/hr rating of new Y2K Mustang V8 injectors is, and are they of the same design as (will they fit) older Mustang or TPI injectors??? Thanks Gabe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 07:32:29 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:32:29 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:32:29 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Water Injection >Hi all > >Have been reading a lot about water injection and how >it reduces detonation. To run high boost I think >water injection is the way to go, but as stated it >must be in atomised form and not produce steam. > >So where is the best place to inject it and just one >injector or one per cylinder ? > >Before or after the turbo ? > >If after the turbo would it be best before or after >the fuel injectors ? A lot of this is open to heated discussion and careful experimentation. Good execution vs bad could leave a very wrong impression as to how well one approach or another works! What I would be inclined to try first would be one water nozzle in each port, in about the same location as the injector. Lots of pressure to the nozzles for good atomization. Pay attention to the timing of the squirts so as to have the best chance of getting the water mist into the cylinders unevaporated. Spraying water on the COOLING AIR side of an intercooler can be very helpful too, with NO bad effects on engine performance--will greatly increase the efficiency of the intercooler. (This approach will evaporatively cool --just like a swamp cooler--the cooling air for the IC. With care, some before the turbo can be very effective and perhaps the simplest--reduce the work the turbo compressor has to do, and therefore also reduce the cooling the intercooler has to do. This has the potential to improve spooling rate if done properly. You woould not want to go beyond the amount of water that would saturate the air coming out of the IC (with respect to water vapor), and after the intercooler, the air stream would be foggy--as the cooling would leave it supersaturated--so you would have to watch out for condensation traps in the duct work after the IC. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 07:34:48 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:34:48 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 07:34:48 -0800 From: Hunt David MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #45 Just lettin' Grumpy relax-- You have pretty well defined the hydraulic system necessary to squirt about 0.06 grams of diesel fuel into a chamber in each cylinder of the Navistar V-8 26 times a second. And--remember, it only has to squirt the diesel in one direction. Now--double the frequency (suspecting that you want to do this on an engine that turns more than 3200 rpm). Then, increase the mass that you have to move by a factor of at least three thousand (for a 180 gram valve?), and last of all, actuate it in both directions. For a little extra fun, realize that no impact at the end of the stroke is acceptable. Last of all, consider the amount of work Navistar did to develop the injection system! Be kind of a fun problem, I would think! Greg Yeah, but since the diesel fires each revolution the frequency is the same...right? And, .06 * 3200 is about 192 grams/ second. Pretty impressive, eh! Also, I don't thing that atomizing .06 grams of diesel fuel (pushing it through a small orifice) is necessarily less work than accelerating (and decelerating) a 180 gram valve. I say this because of the size of the pump. Can anyone do the math? I may have the numbers for the viscosity, but don't know how to do the math. P.S. Anything Navistar can do in production we should be able to do better as one-off projects. Never underestimate the amount of engineering that is necessary to create a product that can be made on a production line! dh ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 08:49:57 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:49:57 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:49:57 -0800 From: Brandon@linnstate.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #42 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6C0B.2D5E2D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have talked to several GM engineers and the solenoid replacement of camshafts has been and is in the development stages. The major stumbling block is the fact that to operate the solenoids they need about 32 volts and the car companies do not want the expense of changing all the electrical systems in the car . ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6C0B.2D5E2D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #42

I have talked to several GM engineers and the = solenoid replacement of camshafts has been and is in the development = stages.  The major stumbling block is the fact that to operate the = solenoids they need about 32 volts and the car companies do not want = the expense of changing all the electrical systems in the car = .

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6C0B.2D5E2D50-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 08:55:15 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:55:15 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:55:15 -0800 From: Laura & Neil MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Aspin engine > My two cents worth: > Aren't we missing something? If we do away with the camshaft, why not > do away with the valves as we know them? How about an Iris? Or maybe > some sort of sliding/rotating window? Would seem to do away with the > problems of valve inertia when changing direction 180 degrees (up/down). > And would reduce the problems with overcoming cylinder pressures? And > then we could change port shape to something more useful. Like maybe > a crescent moon shape instead of round? Or many little triangles over > the whole cylinder diameter, with alternate triangles being intake and > exhaust? > Or maybe just one huge port in the head used by both intake and exhaust, > with redirection of intake and exhaust being done OUTSIDE of the > combustion chamber? > Just a few off-the-wall thoughts. If we're going to re-think things, > and using the old valve configuration doesn't seem to work, then let's > throw out the valves, too! > > BitWrangler Check on the web for the Aspin engine. It used a rotating cone arrangement for a combustion chamber, with a hole cut in the cone that aligned with first the inlet then the exhaust at half crank RPM. From what I remember it gave a near perfect stratification to the intake charge with low emmissions and excellent fuel consumption. Only problem was sealing the cone. Neil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 08:58:18 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:58:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 08:58:18 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #45 > >Yeah, but since the diesel fires each revolution the frequency is the >same...right? And, .06 * 3200 is about 192 grams/ second. Pretty >impressive, eh! > Nope--the Navistar diesel is a four stroke, fires once every other rev. So are all Cummins engines, and even the newer series 40, 50, and 60 GM's and all of the Cats. Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 09:04:06 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:04:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:04:06 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #42 >I have talked to several GM engineers and the solenoid replacement of >camshafts has been and is in the development stages. The major stumbling >block is the fact that to operate the solenoids they need about 32 volts and >the car companies do not want the expense of changing all the electrical >systems in the car . > The 32 volt--or higher-electrical systems are coming, and soon. Betcha they happen LONG before solenoid operated engine valves! Also betcha that the first engines with anything resembling solenoid operated valves are about as long lived and popular as the Vega engines were! Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 09:09:18 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:09:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:09:18 -0800 From: Laura & Neil MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: camless engine > Just lettin' Grumpy relax-- > > You have pretty well defined the hydraulic system necessary to squirt about > 0.06 grams of diesel fuel into a chamber in each cylinder of the Navistar > V-8 26 times a second. And--remember, it only has to squirt the diesel in > one direction. > > Now--double the frequency (suspecting that you want to do this on an engine > that turns more than 3200 rpm). Then, increase the mass that you have to > move by a factor of at least three thousand (for a 180 gram valve?), and > last of all, actuate it in both directions. For a little extra fun, realize > that no impact at the end of the stroke is acceptable. Last of all, > consider the amount of work Navistar did to develop the injection system! > > Be kind of a fun problem, I would think! > > Greg > > > Geez, you outta see me when I get onna roll, that was humor.. > You mentioned using a solenoid for valve action, that means a very specific > volume of hydralic fluid in a very precise moment, Maybe Livermore or > Scandia have something like that, but nothing even close for general use. > Vast difference, IMHO between fuel and valve actuation. With fuel (speaking > of diesels), the opening timing is the critical number, and then guantity > (yes both closely related, and critical). But the mechanical pumps you > mention have been refined for decades. 2000 PSI is also on the lower side, > the Bosch run at 25-28K.. > Grumpy > Hope that was easy enough > Thanks for the break Grumpy. I was just throwing the powerstroke idea around as a starting point. My thoughts had no respect for the laws of physics. But how about a solenoid controlled valve to allow high pressure fluid into a hydraulic ram that opened the valve. A position sensor on the valve somewhere and an identical set-up to slow the opening and then close the valve. Similar to the Ducati desmo gear set up where the camshaft opened and closed the valves( I have no idea how to spell desdromonic and my spell checker fainted when I tried) Neil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 09:12:09 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:12:09 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:12:09 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Aspin engine >Check on the web for the Aspin engine. >It used a rotating cone arrangement for a combustion chamber, with a hole >cut in the >cone that aligned with first the inlet then the exhaust at half crank RPM. >From what >I remember it gave a near perfect stratification to the intake charge with low >emmissions and excellent fuel consumption. Only problem was sealing the cone. > >Neil > You slip the word "ONLY" in there so casually, Neil! Done the way an investment banker trying to sell stock in the thing would do it!! :-) Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 09:20:53 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:20:53 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:20:53 -0800 From: Mac McClanahan MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Electro-magnetic valves Yamaha has a prototype 250 cc. with 4 (2 inlet 2 exhaust) electromagnetic valves being dyno tested at the University of California at Riverside. It's an interesting idea but it takes quite a control system to manage the valves and a large (150V 30A) DC power supply. I think there's an SAE paper on this but I can't find the reference at the moment. Hope this helps, Mac ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 09:24:49 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:24:49 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:24:49 -0800 From: Anthony Buccellato MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: peak and hold injectors Hey Walt, Thanks for the info. I don't need 160 lbs/hr units, not sure how that ended up in the thread. I calculate I currently need 76 lbs/hr with a high BSFC, as I understand boosted applications sometimes exhibit. I would prefer to get closer to 100 lbs/hr to allow some room for future improvement. Checking with the injector companies has shown me it's either Rochester or Bosch Motorsport. Rochester is appealing, due to low cost, I've found them for $62 for 82 lb units. I've heard Bosch is better, and some of their units are even offered in stainless steel, big plus for us boaters. I really want to avoid staged injection, at this point. Cost, complexity, etc. High PW resolution should do me fine at an idle, I figure. If you've got injector pattern pics, please send them. Any further insight on Bosch vs. Rochester would be welcome, as well as suggestions for reasonably priced suppliers, would be great. Thanks. - Clay Oh yeah, please comment on "Rochester isn't as precise" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 09:29:01 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:29:01 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:29:01 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: camless engine >> > >Thanks for the break Grumpy. > >I was just throwing the powerstroke idea around as a starting point. My >thoughts had >no respect for the laws of physics. But how about a solenoid controlled >valve to >allow high pressure fluid into a hydraulic ram that opened the valve. A >position >sensor on the valve somewhere and an identical set-up to slow the opening >and then >close the valve. >Similar to the Ducati desmo gear set up where the camshaft opened and >closed the >valves( I have no idea how to spell desdromonic and my spell checker >fainted when I >tried) > >Neil > Long ago, had the fun of talking to a guy who had worked for Thompson Valve (now the "T" in TRW) about the hydraulic pressures that are encountered in hydraulic (self-adjusting) lifters. These are not only the sort of pressures you would be dealing with, but trying to switch on and off and start and stop the flow--consider the inertia in the fluid itself, as well as the weight of the valve. They are easily comparable the the higher range of diesel fuel injection pressures--2000 BARs!! (About 30,000 psi). Not saying it is not possible, just not too likely any time soon. Variable valve LIFT is not to important. Variable valve timing and duration has a LOT of potential. As is already being done, the most likely practical way of achieving it is with hydraulic/mechanical adjustment of the cam timing, and possibly next with multiple cam lobes per valve. Variable lift can be achieved on a practical basis with variable rocker geometry--and this is already being done, although not on a mass production basis. I strongly suspect that all the talk about 32 V. solenoids is directed more toward controlling the actuation of this kind of hardware, and possibly toward control over variable inlet tract geometry (which is also already a reality) than toward actual hydraulic actuation of the valves themselves. The good old fashioned poppet valve is a VERY well developed and durable part, and it flows far better, particularly for intermittent flow, compared to other schemes than a lot of folks give it credit for! Back to our regularly un-scheduled efi programming--- Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 09:33:22 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:33:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:33:22 -0800 From: "Christian J. Knudstrup" Subject: 105 injectors To give you my two cents Go with a second set of 8 - 80lb/hr injectors which can be set to turn on at a certain boost level. This is what most major (over 1000 hp) blower motors have setup on them Christian ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:55:03 -0800 (PST) > From: Anthony Buccellato > Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors > > > You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. > > To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs > > How big of motor is this?. > > 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ > 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within > reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 > lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors > sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn > up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a > reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. > > > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in > the > > archives > > Thanks. That's what I'd heard. > > > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to > brand, > > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice > if > > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs > pressure. > > Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? > > - - Clay > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > ------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 09:36:17 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:36:17 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:36:17 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Electro-magnetic valves >Yamaha has a prototype 250 cc. with 4 (2 inlet 2 exhaust) >electromagnetic valves being dyno tested at the University of California >at Riverside. It's an interesting idea but it takes quite a control >system to manage the valves and a large (150V 30A) DC power supply. I >think there's an SAE paper on this but I can't find the reference at the >moment. > >Hope this helps, > >Mac Gee--4500 watts to run the valves. That's about 5.5 HP. A pretty significant portion of a 250 cc's output, But it takes a significant amount of power to drive a camshaft, too. What is more significant is that the efficiency losses in the generator and the solenoids are probably at least 1.5 HP! Greg ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 10:07:18 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:07:18 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:07:18 -0800 From: ECMnut@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 2 bar map sensor > > GM 2 bar sensors came in: > > 87-90 Pontiac Sunbird Turbo 2.0 > > Plus 84-86 Sunbird (actually any J-car) turbo 1.8. > Thanks Ludis, my brain was on ch. 749 Mike V ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 10:08:50 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:08:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:08:50 -0800 From: ECMnut@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Dual exhaust on a 4.3 As long as it gets up to temp, it should read things okay. Sounds fine to me. MV > Hi all,I'm almost finished my TBI 4.3 swap in my Toy.I want to run > dual 2 1/4" exhaust,with Flowmaster mufflers.I'd be willing to run a > single system,but in my truck it'd be kinda hard to fab a y pipe. > Will the decrease in back pressure affect the O2 sensor,or will it > confuse the computer in any way?I don't think it will,but it doesn't > hurt to ask,eh? ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 10:25:30 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:25:30 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:25:30 -0800 From: steve ravet MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: 2 bar map sensor FYI, I did some work on the GMECM page this weekend. There's a page on GM sensors, their ranges, etc. Right now the 3 GM Map sensors are the only things there but I'm going to go thru my private stash of GMECM posts and add temp sensors, pickups, etc. There's also going to be a page for each ECM, with bins, ecu files, other things that are specific to each ECM. right now only the 747 one is complete. Anyway people are always asking about MAP sensors, part numbers, and applications, it's all there now, go to www.diy-efi.org, click on GMECM, then click on "GM sensors". --steve nacelp wrote: > > You ordered the right part, got the wrong one. At standard baro should be > at 2.5ish volts > Grumpy > BTW, 90-91 syclones, and typhoons had em > > > I am trying to get a 2 bar map sensor for my accel dfi anyone know which > car came > > with a 2 bar map sensor . I got one for a GN but when I plugged it in it > read an > > incorrect 2bar at atmoshperic pressure . > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@arm.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 10:47:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:47:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:47:13 -0800 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: I need the ignition pulse on a Honda B16A engine. I need it before the power stage as I will modify the ignition signal. It would be nice to get the pin number on the ECU. I haven't been able to get a schematic, I know a tech at a dealer but he is on vacation and I can't wait for him to return. Thanks! Jörgen Karlsson Gothenburg, Sweden. ----- End of forwarded message from owner-diy_efi@diy-efi.org ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 11:11:31 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:11:31 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:11:31 -0800 From: "Christian J. Knudstrup" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #45 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 15:10:57 -0600 From: mark koenig Subject: Re: Electro valves Carlo Putter wrote: > > Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've > got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. > My two cents worth: Aren't we missing something? If we do away with the camshaft, why not do away with the valves as we know them? How about an Iris? Or maybe some sort of sliding/rotating window? Would seem to do away with the problems of valve inertia when changing direction 180 degrees (up/down). And would reduce the problems with overcoming cylinder pressures? And then we could change port shape to something more useful. Like maybe a crescent moon shape instead of round? Or many little triangles over the whole cylinder diameter, with alternate triangles being intake and exhaust? Or maybe just one huge port in the head used by both intake and exhaust, with redirection of intake and exhaust being done OUTSIDE of the combustion chamber? Just a few off-the-wall thoughts. If we're going to re-think things, and using the old valve configuration doesn't seem to work, then let's throw out the valves, too! BitWrangler mrkkatexecpcNOHAMdotcom ------------------------------------------------------------------------- He is right why not get rid of the valves?? why not a rotating circle on the top of a cylinder with a window to intake and exhaust airwould be much less restriction than a valve is now and each cylinder can be controlled individually for timing. Besides the quench area for combustion could be greatly reduced and no more domed pistons and no valve clearances needed. It just might work and could even work as a retro kit on most older cars even if done right. Christian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 12:09:06 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:09:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:09:06 -0800 From: "John Andrianakis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Injector drive circuit mods? Dear all, I have a Weber ecu :W45.06/L20_67. It drives 4 2.5 Ohm injectors. I want to add another four injectors. I am aware of the special chips by Cherry and Motorolla that can drive peak and hold injectors correctly but I do not have the time to source them at this moment. The injectors are driven by BDX53M power darlingtons with some smaller transistors all controlled by some ICs I cant recognize.(This might be not correct, I just figured it out looking at the pcb.) I think I could possibly try two options : 1)Install the secondary injectors(they are peak and hold too) in line with the primaries thus doubling the resistance and inductance seen by each output transitor. Probably would have to add inductive kickback protection.Could anyone guess how thta would change the range of the injectors? 2)Use another set of four same spec output transistors(BDX53M) to drive the injectors. Connecting the bases of the additional transistors in parallel with the ones in the ecu. I have no idea how that would effect the driving IC and or the current regulation. I am mechanical engineering student so my understanding of electronics is basic. I would appreciate it if someone could help me out correcting my thoughts or pointing out a different-better way. Thank you very much. John Andrianakis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 12:16:42 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:16:42 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:16:42 -0800 From: "nacelp" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Injector drive circuit mods? Talk to the guys over at EFI332, they have boards for drivers, Grumpy > Dear all, > I have a Weber ecu :W45.06/L20_67. It drives 4 2.5 Ohm injectors. I want to > add another four injectors. I am aware of the special chips by Cherry and > Motorolla that can drive peak and hold injectors correctly but I do not have > the time to source them at this moment. The injectors are driven by BDX53M > power darlingtons with some smaller transistors all controlled by some ICs I > cant recognize.(This might be not correct, I just figured it out looking at > the pcb.) > I think I could possibly try two options : > 1)Install the secondary injectors(they are peak and hold too) in line with > the primaries thus doubling the resistance and inductance seen by each > output transitor. Probably would have to add inductive kickback > protection.Could anyone guess how thta would change the range of the > injectors? > 2)Use another set of four same spec output transistors(BDX53M) to drive the > injectors. Connecting the bases of the additional transistors in parallel > with the ones in the ecu. I have no idea how that would effect the driving > IC and or the current regulation. > > I am mechanical engineering student so my understanding of electronics is > basic. > I would appreciate it if someone could help me out correcting my thoughts or > pointing out a different-better way. > Thank you very much. > John Andrianakis. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 13:21:28 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:21:28 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:21:28 -0800 From: Anthony Buccellato MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: re: Lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Hi Carl, I didn't mention 160 lb. I need 80 - 100 lb. I currently produce "only" 800 HP, but plan to purchase injectors capable of 1000 - 1100 HP. Gotta look ahead. I plan to run both pump and aviation gasoline, depending on the occasion. Would like stainless steel due to the marine environment. Walt says the Rochester units may have a little better sensitivity at short pulse widths, a big bonus for idle quality. If I can locate a good supplier at a reasonable price, I'll try and find a 90 lb model to purchase. If you have any input re: BBC application, fire away, I would be glad to hear it. Once concern I have is finding good weld-in fittings for my manifold. I would like to find a "positive" retention system to hold the injectors secure against boost, initially 8 - 15 psi, but potential for up to 20 psi down the road. Thanks, - Clay Maybe some of us have forgotten our math??? 160lb x 8 cyl / .5 bsfc = 2560HP....so lets forget about math and try some real world...I have programmed an Autronics box with 8, 96 lb injectors twin turbo's water/air intercooler and ran out of injector at 1639HP at 13.1:1 AFR at 5500 rpm so I'm a little lost on why you need bigger than the 80's to make 1000hp unless you are planning on something I'm unaware of...This was gasoline...were you planning on Alcohol???? BTW the Autronics is a great box with great software, the only thing it could use is some better AE stuff....Lost in Wonderland?????? - -Carl Summers ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 13:40:41 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:40:41 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:40:41 -0800 From: Mike R Brown MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Injector drive circuit mods? John Andrianakis wrote: > Dear all, > I have a Weber ecu :W45.06/L20_67. It drives 4 2.5 Ohm injectors. I want to > add another four injectors. I am aware of the special chips by Cherry and > Motorolla that can drive peak and hold injectors correctly but I do not have > the time to source them at this moment. The injectors are driven by BDX53M > power darlingtons with some smaller transistors all controlled by some ICs I > cant recognize.(This might be not correct, I just figured it out looking at > the pcb.) > I think I could possibly try two options : > 1)Install the secondary injectors(they are peak and hold too) in line with > the primaries thus doubling the resistance and inductance seen by each > output transitor. Probably would have to add inductive kickback > protection.Could anyone guess how thta would change the range of the > injectors? > 2)Use another set of four same spec output transistors(BDX53M) to drive the > injectors. Connecting the bases of the additional transistors in parallel > with the ones in the ecu. I have no idea how that would effect the driving > IC and or the current regulation. > > I am mechanical engineering student so my understanding of electronics is > basic. > I would appreciate it if someone could help me out correcting my thoughts or > pointing out a different-better way. > Thank you very much. > John Andrianakis. > John, Have been doing a lot of work with my Edelbrock Pro-Flo. It uses a Weber IAW4W6 ECM. The output stages in your unit sound a lot like the ones in mine. Take a look at http://www.sonic.net/~mikebr/ecu_hdwr.html I've got schematics of my unit I've created. Might help you in figuring out what you have in yours. Mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 15:40:06 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:40:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:40:06 -0800 From: Will McGonegal MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Mopar heated O2 sensor question I have a four wire heated O2 sensor from a Chrysler (p.n. 5233088). I believe that the heater inside it can be powered continuously by 12 volts. Does anyone know if this is not the case? Perhaps there is a more complex scheme for regulating the sensor temperature that I am not aware of (e.g.. measuring current and voltage into heater, calculating resistance, therefore knowing the temperature). I only have the sensor, not the car so I cannot monitor it while it is in use. I'd like to put it on putting it on a 4-stroke ice-race bike to be sure that I'm still running rich on these cold winter days. Thanks for any help Will ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 16:00:24 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:00:24 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:00:24 -0800 From: Dave Plummer Subject: New member, programming under boost questions Hi! I've spent a good deal of time reading the archives and pouring over PROM dumps, and I've got a few questions that I didn't find answers for. First, the scenario: '94 Corvette 350LT1 w/6psi Vortech ...and under construction: 396LT1 w/50# injectors, 12-15psi boost, 2 core intercooler My first goal, under the heading of "learn on the old motor first", is to eliminate the FMU and alter the spark tables to be better suited to the blown application. My big question is about the WOT Enrichment vs. RPM table. It's described in some places as specifying a desired AF ratio, in others as a percentage of extra fuel to add during WOT. Which is more accurate? How does the O2 sensor get figured into this blanket enrichment at WOT? My second question relates more specifically to accomodating boost. Since the VE tables are limited to 100%, what's the best way to program for boost? I'm thinking this: 1) In the RPM range where boost is present, in the 100kPa column, set VE to 100% 2) Get the extra fuel to accomodate the true >100% VE by upping the WOT enrichment table entries I can't really do #2 without understanding that table a little better, hence the original question. Any feedback on how I should go about programming the LT1 controller for boost would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 16:27:36 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:27:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:27:36 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Large P&H Port Injectors Hi Clay, At the time of your original post none of us knew exactly what your expected BBC power level was or even what type of fuel you intended to run, which is why I tried to outline to you what your proposed 105's would give you with "gasoline" and then asked you at the same time to expand upon your assumptions if they seemed to differ. In light of your subsequent posts, I agree that your application would be best suited by a roughly 80 #/Hr port injector (assuming a maximum 80% injector duty cycle and 0.6bsfc). You had mentioned the 160's in your original post which is why I had commented on them. 160's can be made to work quite well on very large displacement/power BBC's (several examples of which roam the tracks & streets around the southwest end of this province). But again, in light of your recent posts, I feel that the 160's are not for you! I am in the process of trying to gather together my old flowbench notes for you, as related to a series of four different larg'ish port injectors ranging from 75-160 #/Hr @ 3.0 bar, accompanied by photo images of the injectors in action. My photo scanner friend was tied-up today, so I'll try again tomorrow. As soon as I get everything ready I'll post a message to DIY and place a 'ZIP file in the incoming directory. The photos are from a hand held camera (can't afford stroboscopic equipment) but they do effectively give you an idea as to the various plume patterns and their applicability to your injector targeting & distribution expectations. When considering the Bosch vs Rochester P&H's, my choice is still the Bosch injector, for many of the reasons stated earlier. There are two other important factors which I did not state at that time. 1) The Rochester's are not tolerant of substantially increased fuel pressure. On a hot day, with a 4/1 amp driver, do not expect to operate a Rochester at much over about 55 psig without fear that it will fail to open against the prevailing internal hydraulic pressure. Whereas, I have been able to operate some of the Bosch injectors as high as 140psig, which allows a huge window of tuning opportunity down the road without having to fork over considerable $$$ for new injectors. 2) At low base pulse widths, with a 4/1 amp driver, the Rochester's exhibit more irregularity and nonlinearity IMHO. As for staged injection, if your particular ECU/software package easily accommodates this feature, then by all means make use of it! On the other hand, if your package does not, then you will have to rely upon your own means to build custom electronics and fudge the software tables. This can either represent an interesting challenge, or a PITA, depending upon your background and outlook. Yes, some of the Bosch Motorsport injectors are available in stainless steel form (either internally or externally or both) for use with alcohol based and other nasty fuels. However, even though your application is for marine use sounds like you as using "gas" which should be compatible with normal non-SS injectors. Hopefully you don't have that much water in your fuel :) More info to come on the specific injectors. As soon as it congeals I will advise..... Walt. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- > >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:24:42 -0800 (PST) >From: Anthony Buccellato >Subject: Re: peak and hold injectors > >Hey Walt, > >Thanks for the info. I don't need 160 lbs/hr units, not sure how that >ended up in the thread. I calculate I currently need 76 lbs/hr with a high >BSFC, as I understand boosted applications sometimes exhibit. I would >prefer to get closer to 100 lbs/hr to allow some room for future >improvement. > >Checking with the injector companies has shown me it's either Rochester or >Bosch Motorsport. Rochester is appealing, due to low cost, I've found them >for $62 for 82 lb units. I've heard Bosch is better, and some of their >units are even offered in stainless steel, big plus for us boaters. > >I really want to avoid staged injection, at this point. Cost, complexity, >etc. High PW resolution should do me fine at an idle, I figure. > >If you've got injector pattern pics, please send them. Any further insight >on Bosch vs. Rochester would be welcome, as well as suggestions for >reasonably priced suppliers, would be great. Thanks. > >- - Clay > >Oh yeah, please comment on "Rochester isn't as precise" > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:21:21 -0800 (PST) >From: Anthony Buccellato >Subject: re: Lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors > >Hi Carl, > >I didn't mention 160 lb. I need 80 - 100 lb. I currently produce "only" >800 HP, but plan to purchase injectors capable of 1000 - 1100 HP. Gotta >look ahead. I plan to run both pump and aviation gasoline, depending on >the occasion. Would like stainless steel due to the marine environment. > >Walt says the Rochester units may have a little better sensitivity at >short pulse widths, a big bonus for idle quality. If I can locate a good >supplier at a reasonable price, I'll try and find a 90 lb model to >purchase. > >If you have any input re: BBC application, fire away, I would be glad to >hear it. Once concern I have is finding good weld-in fittings for my >manifold. I would like to find a "positive" retention system to hold the >injectors secure against boost, initially 8 - 15 psi, but potential for up >to 20 psi down the road. > >Thanks, > >- - Clay ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 17:03:36 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:03:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:03:36 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: re: lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Hi, Try this site http://www.msdignition.com/ and go to MSD Fuel Management...lot's of good info there on mounting hardware and the part number 2015 96lb injector you are looking for...also, idle quality was pretty good with these 96 lbr's on a 540 BBC with the sequential Autronics box...meaning it idled reasonably clean and stable at 700 rpm....hth's- Carl Summers BTW could someone tell me if I need to unsubscribe from this list and resubscribe under non digest to get rid of this digest mode??? ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:21:21 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Buccellato Subject: re: Lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Hi Carl, I didn't mention 160 lb. I need 80 - 100 lb. I currently produce "only" 800 HP, but plan to purchase injectors capable of 1000 - 1100 HP. Gotta look ahead. I plan to run both pump and aviation gasoline, depending on the occasion. Would like stainless steel due to the marine environment. Walt says the Rochester units may have a little better sensitivity at short pulse widths, a big bonus for idle quality. If I can locate a good supplier at a reasonable price, I'll try and find a 90 lb model to purchase. If you have any input re: BBC application, fire away, I would be glad to hear it. Once concern I have is finding good weld-in fittings for my manifold. I would like to find a "positive" retention system to hold the injectors secure against boost, initially 8 - 15 psi, but potential for up to 20 psi down the road. Thanks, - - Clay Maybe some of us have forgotten our math??? 160lb x 8 cyl / .5 bsfc = 2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 17:10:57 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:10:57 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:10:57 -0800 From: Charles MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: water injection On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:40:46 -0800, you wrote: >With care, some before the turbo can be very effective and perhaps the >simplest-- True, since you don't need a manifold-referenced regulator. In fact, can't you use the boost pressure to build up pressure in the water tank and thus have automatic rising injection rate? I have seen discussion of this subject before and there was some concern over water droplets causing erosion of the compressor blades when it's wound up to 100,000 rpm or so. Any comments? -Charles '81 BMW 745i currently knock-limited to 15 psi boost ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 17:13:59 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:13:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:13:59 -0800 From: Gabe MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Mopar heated O2 sensor question Unless there is something I am missing, the heated O2's that I've dealt with get +12 when the ignition is on, that's about it. Will McGonegal wrote: > I have a four wire heated O2 sensor from a Chrysler (p.n. 5233088). I believe that the > heater inside it can be powered continuously by 12 volts. Does anyone know if this is > not the case? Perhaps there is a more complex scheme for regulating the sensor > temperature that I am not aware of (e.g.. measuring current and voltage into heater, > calculating resistance, therefore knowing the temperature). I only have the sensor, not > the car so I cannot monitor it while it is in use. I'd like to put it on putting it on > a 4-stroke ice-race bike to be sure that I'm still running rich on these cold winter > days. > > Thanks for any help > > Will > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 18:46:13 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:46:13 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:46:13 -0800 From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: water injection >On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:40:46 -0800, you wrote: > >>With care, some before the turbo can be very effective and perhaps the >>simplest-- > >True, since you don't need a manifold-referenced regulator. >In fact, can't you use the boost pressure to build up >pressure in the water tank and thus have automatic rising >injection rate? > >I have seen discussion of this subject before and there was >some concern over water droplets causing erosion of the >compressor blades when it's wound up to 100,000 rpm or so. >Any comments? I think very fine atomization is the key to avoiding this as well, that plus only putting enough water in pre-turbo so as not to go past saturation (with respect to water) at the turbo outlet volume flow/temp conditions. And, remember--the pre-turbo water will lower the turbo compressoor outlet temp considerably. How much water to use here can be calculated. For fine atomization of pre-turbo water, enough pressure is going to be necessary to make "boost referencing" it, or using boost pressure to boost the pump about irrelevant. You will likely need at least 250--300 psi water pressure, or else compressed air atomization at the nozzle, to get it as fine as it ought to be. Greg > >-Charles >'81 BMW 745i currently knock-limited to 15 psi boost >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 19:31:45 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:31:45 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:31:45 -0800 From: ccccc@pula.financenet.gov MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Camless Otto Cycle Engine >From diy_efi 10 Feb 1998 Gregory A. Parmer said: "FWIW, there was quite a discussion about this a while back. Ford Research Laboratory has developed an "Electrohydraulic Camless Valvetrain (ECV)" which uses electronic solenoids to control fluid, which in turn actuates the valves. For a one page down-to-earth description see Machine Design, Nov 7, 1996." It probably was in that Machine Design I read about one implementation. They did a "cute" thing. Did away with the starter. Just opened a valve, squirted in some fuel, closed the valve and fired the plug. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 19:36:45 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:36:45 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:36:45 -0800 From: "nacelp" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: water injection Pre turbo with just relatively small amounts. The water in healthy does, erodes the wheel, badly. All the compressor wheel does then is sling the water to the walls of the housing outlet. Think Centrifigall force Bruce > >>With care, some before the turbo can be very effective and perhaps the > >>simplest-- > > > >True, since you don't need a manifold-referenced regulator. > >In fact, can't you use the boost pressure to build up > >pressure in the water tank and thus have automatic rising > >injection rate? > > > >I have seen discussion of this subject before and there was > >some concern over water droplets causing erosion of the > >compressor blades when it's wound up to 100,000 rpm or so. > >Any comments? > > I think very fine atomization is the key to avoiding this as well, that > plus only putting enough water in pre-turbo so as not to go past saturation > (with respect to water) at the turbo outlet volume flow/temp conditions. > And, remember--the pre-turbo water will lower the turbo compressoor outlet > temp considerably. How much water to use here can be calculated. > > For fine atomization of pre-turbo water, enough pressure is going to be > necessary to make "boost referencing" it, or using boost pressure to boost > the pump about irrelevant. You will likely need at least 250--300 psi water > pressure, or else compressed air atomization at the nozzle, to get it as > fine as it ought to be. > > Greg > > > >-Charles > >'81 BMW 745i currently knock-limited to 15 psi boost > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 20:57:01 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:57:01 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:57:01 -0800 From: Laura & Neil MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Aspin engine > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:13:36 -0700 > From: bearbvd@cmn.net (Greg Hermann) > Subject: Re: Aspin engine > > >Check on the web for the Aspin engine. > >It used a rotating cone arrangement for a combustion chamber, with a hole > >cut in the > >cone that aligned with first the inlet then the exhaust at half crank RPM. > >From what > >I remember it gave a near perfect stratification to the intake charge with low > >emmissions and excellent fuel consumption. Only problem was sealing the cone. > > > >Neil > > > You slip the word "ONLY" in there so casually, Neil! > > Done the way an investment banker trying to sell stock in the thing would > do it!! :-) > > Greg > Lets face it Greg. My knowledge of practical physics and engineering, is probably comparable to Mozart's knowledge of bricklaying. Neil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org From diy_efi-owner Mon Jan 31 21:43:04 2000 Received: from [00.00.00.00] by xxx.xxx.xx; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:43:04 -0800 Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:43:04 -0800 From: "nacelp" MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: New member, programming under boost questions > Hi! I've spent a good deal of time reading the archives and pouring over > PROM dumps, and I've got a few questions that I didn't find answers for. > First, the scenario: > > '94 Corvette 350LT1 w/6psi Vortech > ...and under construction: > 396LT1 w/50# injectors, 12-15psi boost, 2 core intercooler > > My first goal, under the heading of "learn on the old motor first", is to > eliminate the FMU and alter the spark tables to be better suited to the > blown application. I don't see the logic in eliminating the FMU. It's the only thing raising your fuel capacity. > My big question is about the WOT Enrichment vs. RPM table. It's described > in some places as specifying a desired AF ratio, in others as a percentage > of extra fuel to add during WOT. Which is more accurate? How does the O2 > sensor get figured into this blanket enrichment at WOT? Very little if at all. > My second question relates more specifically to accomodating boost. Since > the VE tables are limited to 100%, what's the best way to program for boost? > I'm thinking this: > 1) In the RPM range where boost is present, in the 100kPa column, set VE to > 100% If you don't have enough fuel, still will be lean. Or possibly too much (I doubt) > 2) Get the extra fuel to accomodate the true >100% VE by upping the WOT > enrichment table entries There is a mechanical limit. Once you run out of fuel, it's mute. Need enough injector, fuel pump, etc. > I can't really do #2 without understanding that table a little better, hence > the original question. Any feedback on how I should go about programming > the LT1 controller for boost would be greatly appreciated! The LT1 is stock form has no accomodation for boost. To do this right you need for the calibration to see what the engine load is. Grumpy > > Thanks, > Dave > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@lists.diy-efi.org